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Post by I-Azusio-I on Dec 17, 2013 8:05:12 GMT
How about Extending the 488 via the 108 routing to North Greenwich then via the 129 routing to Cutty Sark ?? this way you would have extra capacity on the 108 between Bow & North Greenwich and the cost wouldn't really be much as you would just combine the PVR's of the two routes maybe add an extra bus during the peaks ,the frequencies on both routes are basically the same 5 buses an hour Mon-Sat daytimes and 3 Evenings and Sundays ? Greenwich to Dalston for a route like 488 would be too far. Also the route will end up having the same reliability problems the 108 has. But it would relieve overcrowdings on 108. |
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Post by sw11simon on Dec 17, 2013 9:37:11 GMT
At the end of the day a topic like this is always going to be controversial as it's based on everyones opinions. Theres no statistics that can measure how 'useless a route is.. "This route is more useless than that route which you say isn't as useless as my route yah yah yah" Anyway, I don't see 129 as useless. From my observations, even during the off peak it often carries half decent loads - It would benefit from an extension though I must say. I would say the endless parade of buses that you get on some Central London roads such as Oxford Street that are generally empty for a large part of the day are more useless - but thats only my opinion! You touch on what is, in my opinion, the best way TfL can save some money... Look at reducing some off peak operations to meet demand. I don't mean cutting routes, I mean going back to routes not necessarily all going to the same destination all the time. The best example I can think of is the 12/53/453 corridor - all 3 of these routes have far too much capacity north of Elephant off peak, the 53 could terminate at Elephant at quieter times... I know this would mean some people would change buses, but from my observations most people travelling beyond on the 53 are doing this anyway... it does not exactly terminate in a useful place. Same with its pick up... I know it picks up people in Whitehall heading south but I believe most of these people have changed off another bus anyway. Route 12, at the other end, has far too much capacity (even in peaks) and every other bus could easily terminate at Peckham/Peckham Rye and still easily meet demand to/from Dulwich. |
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Post by danorak on Dec 17, 2013 12:21:45 GMT
Sticking my oar into the 129 controversy... There is a lot of peak-hour short distance travel within the Millennium Village with passengers going one stop between Oval Square and North Greenwich Station and vice versa. I suspect the 129 is providing capacity here by not carrying longer distance passengers. However, as I've mentioned elsewhere, the usefulness of the round the corner link from Woolwich Road to the shopping park must be up for longer term debate: the Sainsburys store here is moving east to the corner of Gallions Road and Comet has already gone. Both look likely to be replaced by an Ikea.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 17, 2013 18:26:14 GMT
129 is well needed, it gets busy, and is not useless.
Mods message I have edited this post to remove an additional comment aimed at another member. Ps if something is on quarantine and has comments aimed at other members please leave the post for the mods to edit/delete.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2013 9:18:14 GMT
At the end of the day a topic like this is always going to be controversial as it's based on everyones opinions. Theres no statistics that can measure how 'useless a route is.. "This route is more useless than that route which you say isn't as useless as my route yah yah yah" Anyway, I don't see 129 as useless. From my observations, even during the off peak it often carries half decent loads - It would benefit from an extension though I must say. I would say the endless parade of buses that you get on some Central London roads such as Oxford Street that are generally empty for a large part of the day are more useless - but thats only my opinion! You touch on what is, in my opinion, the best way TfL can save some money... Look at reducing some off peak operations to meet demand. I don't mean cutting routes, I mean going back to routes not necessarily all going to the same destination all the time. The best example I can think of is the 12/53/453 corridor - all 3 of these routes have far too much capacity north of Elephant off peak, the 53 could terminate at Elephant at quieter times... I know this would mean some people would change buses, but from my observations most people travelling beyond on the 53 are doing this anyway... it does not exactly terminate in a useful place. Same with its pick up... I know it picks up people in Whitehall heading south but I believe most of these people have changed off another bus anyway. Route 12, at the other end, has far too much capacity (even in peaks) and every other bus could easily terminate at Peckham/Peckham Rye and still easily meet demand to/from Dulwich. Reinstate the 53 to Camden Town! Shorter routes, more changes, more money off your Oyster/contactless payment card! Its strange TfL don't seem to want to promote 7day/month/annual bus passes anymore isn't it? more money from people |
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Post by I-Azusio-I on Dec 20, 2013 14:28:40 GMT
You touch on what is, in my opinion, the best way TfL can save some money... Look at reducing some off peak operations to meet demand. I don't mean cutting routes, I mean going back to routes not necessarily all going to the same destination all the time. The best example I can think of is the 12/53/453 corridor - all 3 of these routes have far too much capacity north of Elephant off peak, the 53 could terminate at Elephant at quieter times... I know this would mean some people would change buses, but from my observations most people travelling beyond on the 53 are doing this anyway... it does not exactly terminate in a useful place. Same with its pick up... I know it picks up people in Whitehall heading south but I believe most of these people have changed off another bus anyway. Route 12, at the other end, has far too much capacity (even in peaks) and every other bus could easily terminate at Peckham/Peckham Rye and still easily meet demand to/from Dulwich. Reinstate the 53 to Camden Town! For the second time you have posted this, let me tell you again. The 53 can't be extended to Camden Town as it would be too far and hugely unlikely in this time and day. If people want to get to Camden Town and they're using 53, then why can't they just get off at Old Kent Road Tesco and take 168 or get off at Whitehall and take 24 or 88. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2013 16:44:36 GMT
Reinstate the 53 to Camden Town! For the second time you have posted this, let me tell you again. The 53 can't be extended to Camden Town as it would be too far and hugely unlikely in this time and day. If people want to get to Camden Town and they're using 53, then why can't they just get off at Old Kent Road Tesco and take 168 or get off at Whitehall and take 24 or 88. They would have to pay twice then wouldn't they??? Never mind. |
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Post by sw11simon on Dec 24, 2013 8:46:12 GMT
You touch on what is, in my opinion, the best way TfL can save some money... Look at reducing some off peak operations to meet demand. I don't mean cutting routes, I mean going back to routes not necessarily all going to the same destination all the time. The best example I can think of is the 12/53/453 corridor - all 3 of these routes have far too much capacity north of Elephant off peak, the 53 could terminate at Elephant at quieter times... I know this would mean some people would change buses, but from my observations most people travelling beyond on the 53 are doing this anyway... it does not exactly terminate in a useful place. Same with its pick up... I know it picks up people in Whitehall heading south but I believe most of these people have changed off another bus anyway. Route 12, at the other end, has far too much capacity (even in peaks) and every other bus could easily terminate at Peckham/Peckham Rye and still easily meet demand to/from Dulwich. Reinstate the 53 to Camden Town! Shorter routes, more changes, more money off your Oyster/contactless payment card! Its strange TfL don't seem to want to promote 7day/month/annual bus passes anymore isn't it? more money from people At the moment the max running time on route 53 is 1 hour 36 mins. Extend it to Camden Town adds 32 mins based on 88 schedule, so a trip is 2 hours and 8 mins. Give it 15 mins recovery time 2 hours 23 mins. Do a return journey against the flow, (constructively guessing here) 1 hour 45 mins. Total to do a rounder (without delays!) 4 hours 8 minutes. Now that is not impossible but would be very difficult to operate, especially from Plumstead Garage where drivers would need to do forced round trip or be transported to mid-route points (at cost) to increase schedule flexibility. For driver's hours and scheduling your suggestion would be a nightmare operationally, as I'm sure anyone else involved in planning bus routes would vouch. As already mentioned, the 168 already serves Camden Town from Old Kent Road/ Elephant, 24/88 from Whitehall... how much demand is there for direct journeys from Plumstead/Woolwich/New Cross to Camden... not much I would suggest. To be honest if a few billion was thrown at TfL to improve bus routes, I do not think this plan would even make it to consideration. There will never be direct journeys from every point in London to another. I'd like a direct bus from Battersea to Ealing... I'm not expecting it! |
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Post by twobellstogo on Dec 24, 2013 9:16:42 GMT
Sticking my oar into the 129 controversy... There is a lot of peak-hour short distance travel within the Millennium Village with passengers going one stop between Oval Square and North Greenwich Station and vice versa. I suspect the 129 is providing capacity here by not carrying longer distance passengers. However, as I've mentioned elsewhere, the usefulness of the round the corner link from Woolwich Road to the shopping park must be up for longer term debate: the Sainsburys store here is moving east to the corner of Gallions Road and Comet has already gone. Both look likely to be replaced by an Ikea. There will be changes to some local routes as a result of Sainsburys moving. No concrete details as yet, but the 161 has been mentioned as a possibility for change, and it wouldn't surprise me to see the 129 involved in the mix too. Re. the 53 - please, don't cut this back to Elephant! Plenty of commuters use this route to travel into Central London. Camden would probably be too far now, more's the pity, but plenty of us travel from the Woolwich/Charlton/Blackheath area into Central London. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 24, 2013 11:49:41 GMT
You touch on what is, in my opinion, the best way TfL can save some money... Look at reducing some off peak operations to meet demand. I don't mean cutting routes, I mean going back to routes not necessarily all going to the same destination all the time. The best example I can think of is the 12/53/453 corridor - all 3 of these routes have far too much capacity north of Elephant off peak, the 53 could terminate at Elephant at quieter times... I know this would mean some people would change buses, but from my observations most people travelling beyond on the 53 are doing this anyway... it does not exactly terminate in a useful place. Same with its pick up... I know it picks up people in Whitehall heading south but I believe most of these people have changed off another bus anyway. Route 12, at the other end, has far too much capacity (even in peaks) and every other bus could easily terminate at Peckham/Peckham Rye and still easily meet demand to/from Dulwich. Reinstate the 53 to Camden Town! Shorter routes, more changes, more money off your Oyster/contactless payment card! Its strange TfL don't seem to want to promote 7day/month/annual bus passes anymore isn't it? more money from people I think the 12 might be a better option for Camden Town, and the 74 from Baker Street with the 274 becoming a local route to Islington. Ironically that other than the 168 to OKR the 88 is the only other decent link to south of the river, and the Northern Line from Clapham/Stockwell is probably more attractive. |
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Post by vjaska on Dec 24, 2013 12:06:47 GMT
Reinstate the 53 to Camden Town! Shorter routes, more changes, more money off your Oyster/contactless payment card! Its strange TfL don't seem to want to promote 7day/month/annual bus passes anymore isn't it? more money from people I think the 12 might be a better option for Camden Town, and the 74 from Baker Street with the 274 becoming a local route to Islington. Ironically that other than the 168 to OKR the 88 is the only other decent link to south of the river, and the Northern Line from Clapham/Stockwell is probably more attractive. I'd rather see the 12 restored to Notting Hill Gate to help out the 148 which share large parts of the route with each other. |
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Post by sw11simon on Dec 24, 2013 16:52:39 GMT
I think the 12 might be a better option for Camden Town, and the 74 from Baker Street with the 274 becoming a local route to Islington. Ironically that other than the 168 to OKR the 88 is the only other decent link to south of the river, and the Northern Line from Clapham/Stockwell is probably more attractive. I'd rather see the 12 restored to Notting Hill Gate to help out the 148 which share large parts of the route with each other. I really fail to see why any other route needs extending to Camden Town from Central London to be honest. Routes currently operate over every possible corridor as far as I can tell. I am sure there are more needy corridors. |
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Post by overgroundcommuter on Dec 24, 2013 17:13:41 GMT
Those who live in those SE London areas from New Cross onwards on the 53 are more likely to use Southeastern then the Northern line from London Bridge to Camden Town than by bus, or travel via North Greenwich station.
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Post by danorak on Dec 24, 2013 19:10:21 GMT
Sticking my oar into the 129 controversy... There is a lot of peak-hour short distance travel within the Millennium Village with passengers going one stop between Oval Square and North Greenwich Station and vice versa. I suspect the 129 is providing capacity here by not carrying longer distance passengers. However, as I've mentioned elsewhere, the usefulness of the round the corner link from Woolwich Road to the shopping park must be up for longer term debate: the Sainsburys store here is moving east to the corner of Gallions Road and Comet has already gone. Both look likely to be replaced by an Ikea. There will be changes to some local routes as a result of Sainsburys moving. No concrete details as yet, but the 161 has been mentioned as a possibility for change, and it wouldn't surprise me to see the 129 involved in the mix too. Re. the 53 - please, don't cut this back to Elephant! Plenty of commuters use this route to travel into Central London. Camden would probably be too far now, more's the pity, but plenty of us travel from the Woolwich/Charlton/Blackheath area into Central London. The 53 deserves a statue erected to it on Blackheath... it has saved my bacon more times than I care to remember. Always busy in my experience. Whitehall's not an ideal terminus but at least it avoids the worst of the Trafalgar Square snarl-ups. Cut it back to the Elephant? You'll have to get past me first. |
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Post by DT 11 on Dec 24, 2013 19:13:33 GMT
Those who live in those SE London areas from New Cross onwards on the 53 are more likely to use Southeastern then the Northern line from London Bridge to Camden Town than by bus, or travel via North Greenwich station. The 53 is at it's busiest from Plumstead - Elephant & Castle. Many passengers make journeys from Woolwich - Elephant & Circus & beyond / Elephant & Circus - Woolwich & beyond. It also has it's passengers who use it from Woolwich - Plumstead & Plumstead Common. The 53 doesn't need to go to Camden Town, it should remain terminating at Whitehall, Horse Guards as the terminus is very suitable and at least it is a short walk to Trafalgar Square & Piccadilly. The C2 already provides that link in all honesty though I think the C2 could be extended to via the 453, 211 to Waterloo would probably make the route too long and stand space is also an issue, but I never saw the point in having the C2 terminating at Oxford Circus The 8 serving Victoria via Holles Street avoiding Oxford Street completely would have worked out a lot better IMO. |
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