linus
Driver
If it ain't broke, fix it till it is.
Posts: 263
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Post by linus on May 20, 2014 7:14:01 GMT
I only survived 2 stops on LTZ1112 on the 11, unbearably stifling with no aircon so I had to get off and take another route. Conductor said aircon failure was usual. This is an utter disaster. Heaven help those depending on LT routes.
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Post by ilovelondonbuses on May 20, 2014 7:31:22 GMT
Wrightbus NEED to make OPENING windows a permanent feature on these buses. TfL has to make them adjust their design, its ridiculous this issue is still happening. At the end of the day, this bus is a bespoke product for TfL so any considerations makes, Wrightbus should take it on board.
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Post by John tuthill on May 20, 2014 8:46:59 GMT
Wrightbus NEED to make windows a permanent feature on these buses. TfL has to make them adjust their design, its ridiculous this issue is still happening. At the end of the day, this bus is a bespoke product for TfL so any considerations makes, Wrightbus should take it on board. It's just like the FRM saga all over again
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Post by snoggle on May 20, 2014 9:50:45 GMT
Wrightbus NEED to make windows a permanent feature on these buses. TfL has to make them adjust their design, its ridiculous this issue is still happening. At the end of the day, this bus is a bespoke product for TfL so any considerations makes, Wrightbus should take it on board. Sorry to be a bit cheeky but all NB4Ls do have windows. ITYM opening windows. Surely Wrightbus can only do what the customer asks them to do? Until TfL take a deep breath and admit there is a problem then nothing will happen. Tom Edwards of the BBC has tweeted twice that there is a sort of contingency list of possible modifications to the NB4L including lower deck opening windows. However there's little sign of a bus being fitted with such windows. The real problem is that the air cooling doesn't work which is moderately bonkers given Wrights can and do supply air cooling on other buses for London as do Alexander Dennis. Having gone through the Catford Bus Wash on a new E40H I can attest to the air cooling certaining working on those new hybrids! I actually think the windows on the NB4L upper deck are too shallow to have hopper windows which makes any future change a not inconsiderable task as a big redesign would be needed or a move to some form of sliding, rather than hinged, opening window (like older buses used to have). Of course that would mean TfL being more relaxed about the risk of things being thrown out of top deck windows!
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Post by smoothcriminal on May 20, 2014 14:06:51 GMT
For it to be any use it's got to be as effective as coaches air conditioning, not some poor effort of air cooling or whatever waste of time system they're using.
Another reason why nbfl is a waste of time.
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Post by rambo on May 20, 2014 19:57:41 GMT
Try driving a bus with no aircon.
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Post by Volvo on May 20, 2014 20:38:45 GMT
I think presidents and ALX400s are some of the worst buses to be on in the heath, Gemini 2s are the best
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Post by twobellstogo on May 20, 2014 21:46:44 GMT
I only survived 2 stops on LTZ1112 on the 11, unbearably stifling with no aircon so I had to get off and take another route. Conductor said aircon failure was usual. This is an utter disaster. Heaven help those depending on LT routes. LT112 is a Metroline vehicle... I'm going to be a bit controversial here, considering the overwhelming opinion here is that the LT is, as you put it Linus, an utter disaster. I think the majority of current bus designs suffer to a greater or lesser extent when the weather heats up - it seems to me to be more an individual vehicle thing. Yesterday, the hottest day of the year, I went on two LTs : LT13 on route 24, which was horrible for heat, and LT50 on route 11, which was a lovely ride all round. I'm sure you could take individual vehicles from all bus batches, and do much the same thing. The LT will invariably be focused on because of its very high profile.
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Post by ohdear on May 20, 2014 22:16:27 GMT
I only survived 2 stops on LTZ1112 on the 11, unbearably stifling with no aircon so I had to get off and take another route. Conductor said aircon failure was usual. This is an utter disaster. Heaven help those depending on LT routes. LT112 is a Metroline vehicle... I'm going to be a bit controversial here, considering the overwhelming opinion here is that the LT is, as you put it Linus, an utter disaster. I think the majority of current bus designs suffer to a greater or lesser extent when the weather heats up - it seems to me to be more an individual vehicle thing. Yesterday, the hottest day of the year, I went on two LTs : LT13 on route 24, which was horrible for heat, and LT50 on route 11, which was a lovely ride all round. I'm sure you could take individual vehicles from all bus batches, and do much the same thing. The LT will invariably be focused on because of its very high profile. Surely when something is so high profile then it should be ensured such faults do not exist or repaired quickly
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Post by snoggle on May 20, 2014 22:35:58 GMT
I only survived 2 stops on LTZ1112 on the 11, unbearably stifling with no aircon so I had to get off and take another route. Conductor said aircon failure was usual. This is an utter disaster. Heaven help those depending on LT routes. LT112 is a Metroline vehicle... I'm going to be a bit controversial here, considering the overwhelming opinion here is that the LT is, as you put it Linus, an utter disaster. I think the majority of current bus designs suffer to a greater or lesser extent when the weather heats up - it seems to me to be more an individual vehicle thing. Yesterday, the hottest day of the year, I went on two LTs : LT13 on route 24, which was horrible for heat, and LT50 on route 11, which was a lovely ride all round. I'm sure you could take individual vehicles from all bus batches, and do much the same thing. The LT will invariably be focused on because of its very high profile. Two questions arise from your LT observations. Firstly why is LT50 seemingly OK whereas LT13 (and others) is not? Secondly why have TfL publicly stated that the air cooling problem is "fixed" when it clearly is not? I doubt anyone here can answer those questions but, as you say, given the high profile you would expect TfL to have inspected and checked and tested every single LT to make sure people are not boiled alive. It's clear from the tweets that there are problems on all the routes which is unacceptable given there are nearly 200 of the things in service. I used a DW last Sunday, when it was warm, and sat up and downstairs (same bus both ways) and suffered no discomfort at all. It was clear that the air cooling was working because people sitting under the ducts remarked on the cool air.
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Post by vjaska on May 21, 2014 0:14:19 GMT
As I've said before, I've found very few buses to be cool - mainly just newer vehicles like the Enviro 400 & Gemini 2. The 06 reg WVL's aren't too bad as are the 900 series Omnidekkas.
That all said, there is still a remarkable difference between a standard bus that's hot and a LT that's hot.
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linus
Driver
If it ain't broke, fix it till it is.
Posts: 263
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Post by linus on May 24, 2014 9:48:49 GMT
Apologies re my earlier post – my trip on LT112 was on the 24, I had just missed an 11. Prior to that I travelled a short distance along Victoria Street on a 148, also with no aircon, so my opinion that day was jaded to say the least!
The reasons I consider this an utter disaster are:
(1) the problem has been known ever since the first forays on the 38, and then in spades when squadron service was introduced in hot weather on the 24. A permanent fix should have been established as top priority.
(2) This is not any bus, this is TfL's iconic flagship and we are to get 600 of them. It is unthinkable to have 600 flagship icons on key routes of which a large proportion are impossible to use during a large part (hopefully) of each year. If they're unbearable at 70deg, heaven help us at 80 or 90 or above, which is not infrequent and is going to be increasingly common with global warming.
(3) This is not just a matter of extreme discomfort, it's also a Health & Safety issue, as people start fainting left right and centre.
(4) TfL should not be accepting any more of these until the problem is fully resolved and the aircon 100% reliable (OK, 99.9% or some other reasonable target). They should not be on the roads in temps above say 65 without fully operational aircon, or the means to introduce airflow (aka opening windows).
(5) That Wrightbus should allow this situation to continue is unforgivable. Their other new buses I've experienced were all comfortable, as are the ADL vehicles I usually use. And if the aircon fails, at least the windows open, so they're always at least bearable.
(6) The New Routemaster is a brand. When the public perceives them as saunas that brand will be permanently tainted, and they will be shunned like the plague.
Incidentally, apart from that I like the bus. But without working aircon they're not fit for purpose. I dread the day they appear on my local 189.
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Post by M1104 on May 24, 2014 10:27:41 GMT
: (4) TfL should not be accepting any more of these until the problem is fully resolved and the aircon 100% reliable (OK, 99.9% or some other reasonable target). I agree, especially as they once imposed such a 'delivery restriction' for the B9TLs in connection with the noise pollution of many B7TLs.
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Post by snoggle on May 24, 2014 10:44:17 GMT
Apologies re my earlier post – my trip on LT112 was on the 24, I had just missed an 11. Prior to that I travelled a short distance along Victoria Street on a 148, also with no aircon, so my opinion that day was jaded to say the least! The reasons I consider this an utter disaster are: (1) the problem has been known ever since the first forays on the 38, and then in spades when squadron service was introduced in hot weather on the 24. A permanent fix should have been established as top priority. (2) This is not any bus, this is TfL's iconic flagship and we are to get 600 of them. It is unthinkable to have 600 flagship icons on key routes of which a large proportion are impossible to use during a large part (hopefully) of each year. If they're unbearable at 70deg, heaven help us at 80 or 90 or above, which is not infrequent and is going to be increasingly common with global warming. (3) This is not just a matter of extreme discomfort, it's also a Health & Safety issue, as people start fainting left right and centre. (4) TfL should not be accepting any more of these until the problem is fully resolved and the aircon 100% reliable (OK, 99.9% or some other reasonable target). They should not be on the roads in temps above say 65 without fully operational aircon, or the means to introduce airflow (aka opening windows). (5) That Wrightbus should allow this situation to continue is unforgivable. Their other new buses I've experienced were all comfortable, as are the ADL vehicles I usually use. And if the aircon fails, at least the windows open, so they're always at least bearable. (6) The New Routemaster is a brand. When the public perceives them as saunas that brand will be permanently tainted, and they will be shunned like the plague. Incidentally, apart from that I like the bus. But without working aircon they're not fit for purpose. I dread the day they appear on my local 189. I don't disagree with much of what you've said. There is, of course, a certain irony that the "flagship" nature of the bus is causing TfL to be very defensive and to deny there is a problem. Going back now and redesigning something that has been branded "iconic" and wonderful by the Mayor is borderline impossible because it means someone admitting they got something wrong. Mr Hendy apparently said on the radio last week that overheating NB4Ls and people complaining about the temperature was a "myth". I clearly imagined reading all the tweets from people moaning about being baked alive. My guess, and I'm no vehicle designer, is that the basic structure of the bus with the engine where it is plus the rear stair / platform and the squashed upper deck makes it impossible to fix the air cooling problem. There isn't air conditioning for passengers on any London double decker because the refrigeration and ducting is too heavy when set alongside the rest of the TfL spec. What would be really interesting, but extremely unlikely, is for someone to trial one of the two axle E40Ds or Volvos that have been delivered to Hong Kong. They *are* air conditioned on two axles so could offer a step forward for London if we really feel full air con should be provided on buses. It's unlikely because it would show up the failings on a certain other bus design (ahem!).
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Post by vjaska on May 24, 2014 11:01:57 GMT
Apologies re my earlier post – my trip on LT112 was on the 24, I had just missed an 11. Prior to that I travelled a short distance along Victoria Street on a 148, also with no aircon, so my opinion that day was jaded to say the least! The reasons I consider this an utter disaster are: (1) the problem has been known ever since the first forays on the 38, and then in spades when squadron service was introduced in hot weather on the 24. A permanent fix should have been established as top priority. (2) This is not any bus, this is TfL's iconic flagship and we are to get 600 of them. It is unthinkable to have 600 flagship icons on key routes of which a large proportion are impossible to use during a large part (hopefully) of each year. If they're unbearable at 70deg, heaven help us at 80 or 90 or above, which is not infrequent and is going to be increasingly common with global warming. (3) This is not just a matter of extreme discomfort, it's also a Health & Safety issue, as people start fainting left right and centre. (4) TfL should not be accepting any more of these until the problem is fully resolved and the aircon 100% reliable (OK, 99.9% or some other reasonable target). They should not be on the roads in temps above say 65 without fully operational aircon, or the means to introduce airflow (aka opening windows). (5) That Wrightbus should allow this situation to continue is unforgivable. Their other new buses I've experienced were all comfortable, as are the ADL vehicles I usually use. And if the aircon fails, at least the windows open, so they're always at least bearable. (6) The New Routemaster is a brand. When the public perceives them as saunas that brand will be permanently tainted, and they will be shunned like the plague. Incidentally, apart from that I like the bus. But without working aircon they're not fit for purpose. I dread the day they appear on my local 189. Agree with all this apart from liking the bus, I still hate the d*mn thing. I'm dreading the day Brixton get any.
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