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Post by M1104 on Jul 6, 2013 15:35:25 GMT
If a bus driver turns up for work and there is no serviceable bus for him to drive he's not going to be penalised for not driving as it's not his property. He will still get paid as he has done his part with the task of turning up. Same logic in this case with Metroline regarding the LT's air con situation as they have not done anything to negate its operation. If, for example, the bus suffered a flat tire or ran out of diesel that would be down to the operator as that would be part of their routine maintenance. I think you are underestimating maintenance. If TfL specify a bus should have a certain fitment then it is expected to be maintained in operational order. This debate was used about 10 years ago with wheelchair ramps, garages didn't maintain them, Press got hold of a story that a number of buses in a row wouldn't take a wheelchair passenger, big stink about it, TfL then rules that it must be proved to work before leaving the garage. If A/c is fitted should also be kept serviceable. The opposite is unacceptable as cant really say didn't bother to replace a headlight bulb or brake pad as it has others on the bus. Are you suggesting Metroline not doing full maintenance on all compulsory parts is ok, (even if a passenger gets heatstroke due to a/c failure)
As snoggle mentioned there's the warranty of the air cons which may prohibit (or most likely limit) Metroline from doing any extensive maintenance to solve the problem. Also, the problem appears to originate from the builders/installer rather than the operator. I believe it's a similar issue with gearboxes where engineers can only do so much to it...possibly why some of the SEs at GAL are said to be getting retrofits from a faulty batch of Allisons to Voith.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2013 18:50:36 GMT
This was a totally predictable scenario. Heat wave and buses with non opening windows need functioning air con. If it is not working at heats like this, it is the duty of the bus driver to take it out of service. The flaw in the big plan has hit already on the first route fully converted. Newer examples will have to have opening windows. tfL have messed up here big time.
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Post by ServerKing on Jul 6, 2013 19:43:53 GMT
Mike Weston of TfL has apparently said there is "a simple fix" to cure the heat problems on the bus and that they'll all be modified this weekend. This rather begs the question, given a float of 5 buses over the M-F PVR, as to why this "simple fix" has not been done previously. Only a few buses are in service at night so there is surely time to effect this "simple fix" overnight at the garage? They could even do some buses during the day if they wished. The whole thing has been badly managed from a reputational point of view with TfL seemingly allowing the issue to run out of control in the media and TfL making erroneous statements which they've only half corrected in order to avoid massive embarrassment being heaped on the shoulders of certain individuals. Given the entire fleet of prototypes were hoiked off the road last Summer because internal temperatures were dangerously high no one can claim that they could not have seen this overheating problem coming. I'm just glad I do not have to use the 24 on a regular basis. In engineering, there's no such thing as a 'simple fix' How come the 8 prototypes don't have that issue - we don't hear about the 38's NBFL's being oppressive with the heat... unless when they were trying to lower the weight of the 'production' fleet (LT 9+) they fitted lighter, more inferior air handling systems. This in no way is Metroline's fault - they've been trapped into having to run the 24 with these vehicles. Interesting that the 13 has opted for conventional hybrids (B5LH's) for their recent award.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2013 22:39:23 GMT
I wonder if theres any confirmation on it?
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Post by ajw on Jul 6, 2013 23:42:22 GMT
I don't know why there is a debate about maintenance in this thread. The A/C issues are clearly a design issue, which is not Metroline's problem, especially as they don't own the buses.
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Post by M1199 on Jul 7, 2013 9:33:58 GMT
I think someone at Metroline had better tell their CSA's the difference between an air vent and a light! I rode LT30 yesterday, another one with minimal a/c in operation, at one point during the journey, the female csa, came walking along the top deck, whilst up top she started to check whether the a/c was blowing out, with that she started shaking her head and muttering to herself, the thing is, she was checking for cold air coming from ...........the lights!!!! (The lights were switched off, so she wasn't checking the heat from them!)
Rode another one later on, I didn't catch the fleet number but it was stifling on board, fair play to the csa on that one, he was letting people stand on the platform to keep cool.
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Post by vjaska on Jul 7, 2013 17:22:46 GMT
Mike Weston of TfL has apparently said there is "a simple fix" to cure the heat problems on the bus and that they'll all be modified this weekend. This rather begs the question, given a float of 5 buses over the M-F PVR, as to why this "simple fix" has not been done previously. Only a few buses are in service at night so there is surely time to effect this "simple fix" overnight at the garage? They could even do some buses during the day if they wished. The whole thing has been badly managed from a reputational point of view with TfL seemingly allowing the issue to run out of control in the media and TfL making erroneous statements which they've only half corrected in order to avoid massive embarrassment being heaped on the shoulders of certain individuals. Given the entire fleet of prototypes were hoiked off the road last Summer because internal temperatures were dangerously high no one can claim that they could not have seen this overheating problem coming. I'm just glad I do not have to use the 24 on a regular basis. In engineering, there's no such thing as a 'simple fix' How come the 8 prototypes don't have that issue - we don't hear about the 38's NBFL's being oppressive with the heat... unless when they were trying to lower the weight of the 'production' fleet (LT 9+) they fitted lighter, more inferior air handling systems. This in no way is Metroline's fault - they've been trapped into having to run the 24 with these vehicles. Interesting that the 13 has opted for conventional hybrids (B5LH's) for their recent award. The ones on the 38, even after the mod are hot, me, DW498 & Christopher rode LT5 on a hot day & it was very stuffy.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2013 21:10:19 GMT
There is still complaints going in on Twitter regarding about the NBFL's overheating. I hope Metroline enters the normal buses into service.
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Post by IanF on Jul 8, 2013 22:09:36 GMT
There is still complaints going in on Twitter regarding about the NBFL's overheating. I hope Metroline enters the normal buses into service. Until tfl say remove lts until they are up to standard it won't happen. Metroline will not run buses that breach the contract as funnily enough they will be fined. Also they will be paying ca's to twiddle thumbs.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2013 22:14:47 GMT
There is still complaints going in on Twitter regarding about the NBFL's overheating. I hope Metroline enters the normal buses into service. Until tfl say remove lts until they are up to standard it won't happen. Metroline will not run buses that breach the contract as funnily enough they will be fined. Also they will be paying ca's to twiddle thumbs. Well at least it's not Metrolines fault that the air con on the NBFL's are not working properly! Even through TFL originally had a question regarding about air conditioning on London Buses! Well the air basically goes out because of the open platform...
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Post by snoggle on Jul 8, 2013 22:43:25 GMT
I wonder why TfL have installed air conditioning on the S Stock and Class 378 trains if, according to them, it is a waste of time where doors have to be opened and closed frequently? What a load of old drivel. They've provided it because passengers want it and because travelling conditions can be unbearable without it.
Perhaps TfL should send their advice to bus passengers in Hong Kong and Singapore and see what reaction they get? I am sure buses in the Far East do use more fuel to provide refrigerated air conditioning but travelling would be intolerable in buses without air conditioning and with UK style opening windows. Prior to air con being practical buses in the Far East had bars over the windows but with big sliding windows in order to give high air flow within the bus. TfL have designed a bus that the Mayor wanted but which it is impossible to keep cool - now whose fault is that?
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Post by snoggle on Jul 10, 2013 10:13:23 GMT
It seems Sir Peter has been talking to ITV London this morning. He was spotted on LT12 at Kings Cross yesterday which I assume was something to do with trying out a modified vehicle.
Apparently the NB4Ls have NOT been working properly because Wright bus did not manufacture or test the buses properly. Some coolers were incorrectly fitted and were not tested. Some fans did not work and some cooling units were blowing out hot air. Wrights are "very embarrassed" but everything is now fixed. Cue journalists and bloggers with thermometers on route 24 AGAIN.
I doubt Sir Peter would be making these statements unless he was 100% confident of the cause of the problems and the solution. He's too astute to put himself in the line of further criticism unless he has a clear defence for this position. Still, as always, we shall see what the reality is like.
What all of this says about Wrightbus quality assurance and testing processes I don't know. I thought they were considered to be better than average? It's also not good given NB4Ls are off doing promotional work about the quality and innovation of UK industry!
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Post by John tuthill on Jul 10, 2013 10:26:04 GMT
It seems Sir Peter has been talking to ITV London this morning. He was spotted on LT12 at Kings Cross yesterday which I assume was something to do with trying out a modified vehicle. Apparently the NB4Ls have NOT been working properly because Wright bus did not manufacture or test the buses properly. Some coolers were incorrectly fitted and were not tested. Some fans did not work and some cooling units were blowing out hot air. Wrights are "very embarrassed" but everything is now fixed. Cue journalists and bloggers with thermometers on route 24 AGAIN. I doubt Sir Peter would be making these statements unless he was 100% confident of the cause of the problems and the solution. He's too astute to put himself in the line of further criticism unless he has a clear defence for this position. Still, as always, we shall see what the reality is like. What all of this says about Wrightbus quality assurance and testing processes I don't know. I thought they were considered to be better than average? It's also not good given NB4Ls are off doing promotional work about the quality and innovation of UK industry! So THAT'S where Murphys Law originated-If It can go wrong it will go wrong. Remember a BBC documentary years ago, it found that a plane crashed because a fuel valve was installed the wrong way around, even though it had an arrow for direction of flow, and two different thread sizes!! "Wright Bus, or should it be Wrong Bus?"
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2013 11:07:58 GMT
It seems Sir Peter has been talking to ITV London this morning. He was spotted on LT12 at Kings Cross yesterday which I assume was something to do with trying out a modified vehicle. Apparently the NB4Ls have NOT been working properly because Wright bus did not manufacture or test the buses properly. Some coolers were incorrectly fitted and were not tested. Some fans did not work and some cooling units were blowing out hot air. Wrights are "very embarrassed" but everything is now fixed. Cue journalists and bloggers with thermometers on route 24 AGAIN. I doubt Sir Peter would be making these statements unless he was 100% confident of the cause of the problems and the solution. He's too astute to put himself in the line of further criticism unless he has a clear defence for this position. Still, as always, we shall see what the reality is like. What all of this says about Wrightbus quality assurance and testing processes I don't know. I thought they were considered to be better than average? It's also not good given NB4Ls are off doing promotional work about the quality and innovation of UK industry! Well its Wrightbus that have botched it up all along! www.itv.com/news/london/update/2013-07-10/embarrassment-over-boris-bus-overheating/All LT's need to be tested in deep detail before they put it into service!
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Post by marlon101 on Jul 10, 2013 11:13:52 GMT
It seems Sir Peter has been talking to ITV London this morning. He was spotted on LT12 at Kings Cross yesterday which I assume was something to do with trying out a modified vehicle. Apparently the NB4Ls have NOT been working properly because Wright bus did not manufacture or test the buses properly. Some coolers were incorrectly fitted and were not tested. Some fans did not work and some cooling units were blowing out hot air. Wrights are "very embarrassed" but everything is now fixed. Cue journalists and bloggers with thermometers on route 24 AGAIN. I doubt Sir Peter would be making these statements unless he was 100% confident of the cause of the problems and the solution. He's too astute to put himself in the line of further criticism unless he has a clear defence for this position. Still, as always, we shall see what the reality is like. What all of this says about Wrightbus quality assurance and testing processes I don't know. I thought they were considered to be better than average? It's also not good given NB4Ls are off doing promotional work about the quality and innovation of UK industry! Well its Wrightbus that have botched it up all along! www.itv.com/news/london/update/2013-07-10/embarrassment-over-boris-bus-overheating/All LT's need to be tested in deep detail before they put it into service! Easier said than done, there are other variables at play! Money Time Political timetables etc. etc.
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