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Post by IanF on Nov 2, 2013 23:31:16 GMT
I wouldn't be surprised with the amount of buses that I see sitting at Bow Church half the time. Some go into service while the other one is used as a Meal Relief bus. Agreed. Even looking at it from the point of view of someone in the industry, the operation of the 25 can be terrible some days. I get that delays happen and understand the issues a driver coming off late for his/her relief can cause but for it to happen more or less every day doesn't create a good impression of the service. If i was in charge of a company I would avoid taking on the 25 as its just a hard service to run smoothly. I've been on the route way too many times and on more than one occasion I've overtaken five to eight buses in quick succession which just isn't right. |
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Post by snoggle on Nov 2, 2013 23:43:21 GMT
Agreed. Even looking at it from the point of view of someone in the industry, the operation of the 25 can be terrible some days. I get that delays happen and understand the issues a driver coming off late for his/her relief can cause but for it to happen more or less every day doesn't create a good impression of the service. If i was in charge of a company I would avoid taking on the 25 as its just a hard service to run smoothly. I've been on the route way too many times and on more than one occasion I've overtaken five to eight buses in quick succession which just isn't right. Can I play devil's advocate? Is there any very high frequency service that really runs smoothly and doesn't have buses in bunches followed by gaps plus buses in queues waiting for driver reliefs? Suggestions / views welcome. This is not to say the 25 is perfect - more a reflection that high frequency services are hard to run well in ideal conditions and London rarely has "ideal conditions". I am probably being unfair but I do wonder what on earth some controllers actually do - I tire of seeing buses running together for hours on end or buses still not running to headway in the evenings. Aren't controllers supposed to try to even these gaps out to try to get back to the required headway? For example on LVF I just spotted two W4 buses running 1 minute apart when the timetabled headway is every 15 mins. How on earth can that still be happening when we're not far off the end of service? I see similar problems repeated day after day and I expect every group member could recite their own list of examples from right across London. |
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Post by I-Azusio-I on Nov 3, 2013 0:18:54 GMT
If i was in charge of a company I would avoid taking on the 25 as its just a hard service to run smoothly. I've been on the route way too many times and on more than one occasion I've overtaken five to eight buses in quick succession which just isn't right. Can I play devil's advocate? Is there any very high frequency service that really runs smoothly and doesn't have buses in bunches followed by gaps plus buses in queues waiting for driver reliefs? Suggestions / views welcome. This is not to say the 25 is perfect - more a reflection that high frequency services are hard to run well in ideal conditions and London rarely has "ideal conditions". I am probably being unfair but I do wonder what on earth some controllers actually do - I tire of seeing buses running together for hours on end or buses still not running to headway in the evenings. Aren't controllers supposed to try to even these gaps out to try to get back to the required headway? For example on LVF I just spotted two W4 buses running 1 minute apart when the timetabled headway is every 15 mins. How on earth can that still be happening when we're not far off the end of service? I see similar problems repeated day after day and I expect every group member could recite their own list of examples from right across London. I normally see route 25 controllers at Bow Church Station, also where drivers changeover. I think maybe it's down to the operator. Tower Transit are a new operator (despite it's First really but was sold) and maybe they can't handle running the 25 that well. I'm sure First had the same problems with the route before the company was sold and TT now have to pick up from that problem that First left which may be hard for them. I remember one time I was on the 25 to Aldgate and there was so much traffic between Ilford and Stratford, by the time the driver got to Bow Church, the controller told him that he was 1 hour & 42 mins late to get there but he still ran to Oxford Circus instead of curtailing. |
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Post by TA1 on Nov 3, 2013 0:37:54 GMT
Can I play devil's advocate? Is there any very high frequency service that really runs smoothly and doesn't have buses in bunches followed by gaps plus buses in queues waiting for driver reliefs? Suggestions / views welcome. This is not to say the 25 is perfect - more a reflection that high frequency services are hard to run well in ideal conditions and London rarely has "ideal conditions". I am probably being unfair but I do wonder what on earth some controllers actually do - I tire of seeing buses running together for hours on end or buses still not running to headway in the evenings. Aren't controllers supposed to try to even these gaps out to try to get back to the required headway? For example on LVF I just spotted two W4 buses running 1 minute apart when the timetabled headway is every 15 mins. How on earth can that still be happening when we're not far off the end of service? I see similar problems repeated day after day and I expect every group member could recite their own list of examples from right across London. I normally see route 25 controllers at Bow Church Station, also where drivers changeover. I think maybe it's down to the operator. Tower Transit are a new operator (despite it's First really but was sold) and maybe they can't handle running the 25 that well. I'm sure First had the same problems with the route before the company was sold and TT now have to pick up from that problem that First left which may be hard for them. I remember one time I was on the 25 to Aldgate and there was so much traffic between Ilford and Stratford, by the time the driver got to Bow Church, the controller told him that he was 1 hour & 42 mins late to get there but he still ran to Oxford Circus instead of curtailing. Despite Tower Transit being a new operator, I'm sure that TT have not made any immediate changes to Backroom/operating staff and presumably the controllers & ibus team remain the same from First operations. I agree, a big time loss for the route must be between Bow Church and Stratford, with the carriageway on the A11 High Street being narrowed to make way for the improved Cycle Superway extension to Stratford. |
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Post by greeny253 on Nov 3, 2013 8:04:33 GMT
If i was in charge of a company I would avoid taking on the 25 as its just a hard service to run smoothly. I've been on the route way too many times and on more than one occasion I've overtaken five to eight buses in quick succession which just isn't right. Can I play devil's advocate? Is there any very high frequency service that really runs smoothly and doesn't have buses in bunches followed by gaps plus buses in queues waiting for driver reliefs? Suggestions / views welcome. This is not to say the 25 is perfect - more a reflection that high frequency services are hard to run well in ideal conditions and London rarely has "ideal conditions". I am probably being unfair but I do wonder what on earth some controllers actually do - I tire of seeing buses running together for hours on end or buses still not running to headway in the evenings. Aren't controllers supposed to try to even these gaps out to try to get back to the required headway? For example on LVF I just spotted two W4 buses running 1 minute apart when the timetabled headway is every 15 mins. How on earth can that still be happening when we're not far off the end of service? I see similar problems repeated day after day and I expect every group member could recite their own list of examples from right across London. Thing is, there's bunching and then there's the 25. I get that some bunching on high frequency service is inevitable (first bus running late, next one early it's gonna happen!) but when there are 3 or 4 buses crawling along together at 19MPH I don't consider that to be a bunching issue. I've spoken to one service controller who agrees with their drivers that the 25 apparently "can't be run by the headway display." I beg to differ. At the end of the day, attitudes like that are merely going to cost them the contract at renewal and it'll be the drivers that complain about it when it happens. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2013 8:32:13 GMT
Agreed. Even looking at it from the point of view of someone in the industry, the operation of the 25 can be terrible some days. I get that delays happen and understand the issues a driver coming off late for his/her relief can cause but for it to happen more or less every day doesn't create a good impression of the service. If i was in charge of a company I would avoid taking on the 25 as its just a hard service to run smoothly. I've been on the route way too many times and on more than one occasion I've overtaken five to eight buses in quick succession which just isn't right. So you would turn down a contract with revenues of nearly £14m, so probably approaching £1m of profit? If you ran that bus company I am sure the owners would not be best pleased with you. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2013 22:56:29 GMT
If i was in charge of a company I would avoid taking on the 25 as its just a hard service to run smoothly. I've been on the route way too many times and on more than one occasion I've overtaken five to eight buses in quick succession which just isn't right. So you would turn down a contract with revenues of nearly £14m, so probably approaching £1m of profit? If you ran that bus company I am sure the owners would not be best pleased with you. Since you've put it into that perspective, I don't think none of us would..  |
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Post by sw11simon on Nov 7, 2013 8:05:31 GMT
As a former controller, although not on route 25 or in east London, I can see that the 25 would be a challenge to run. For starters it is a very busy route at a very high frequency, so the potential for bunching is high. Increasing that potential is a changeover point delaying some buses mid-route and buses in central London starting from alternative points. I doubt very much it would be cost effective to move the changeover point to Ilford and on such a long route that would also make scheduling pretty inefficient (time to do one Oxford Circus round in a spell, not time to do 2 Holborns) and seriously affect the central London service during delays. Buses starting in Holborn will result in some buses running with an bus from Oxford Circus coming through a bit late, and undoubtedly some drivers manipulating that occurrence. In addition to that, the road is pretty straight... I could be corrected here but I doubt there are many shortcuts available to run a late bus out of service to regain its position (compared to, for instance, route 87 where you can run a bus from Aldwych to Vauxhall via Waterloo Bridge).
Possible semi solutions would be to place controllers out on the road at termini and changeover point (that may happen already, I only really see the route in Oxford Street) but that would increase costs, and low costs is how operators win work. The best way to separate a bunch is to get buses to sit back and wait - this hardly goes down well with passengers and I'm sure they'd be lots of moans if this happens often.
Personally I think London over-obsesses with bunching. It is how routes are targeted, but but this leads to crazy ways to stop it... delaying buses on route that subsequently require a curtailment to put them back on schedule is not uncommon. It is going to happen on high frequency routes. I think a better service would be provided overall if departure from termini were looked after and tightly controlled, but less obsession with splitting bunches on route, always ending up with unhappy passengers.
Ultimately this is a 4 minute road. There are not many 4 minute roads but, comparably by frequency, I see bunching regularly on route 38. The 36/436 is a similar set up under 2 route numbers, they often run together. If this was all route 36 overlapping (as it used to be) the same comments could apply.
I'm not trying to be over-defensive, but any controller/ company running route 25 has quite a challenge on their hands.
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Post by ilovelondonbuses on Nov 15, 2013 6:57:55 GMT
While on trailing on route 133 yesterday on my way to work, I got a brainwave that 133 would be a perfect route for NB4L to go on. Always heavily used so it could with a bus like NB4L. The only problem is that I heard the NB4L can't do hills so running light to N would be hard. Maybe with future modifications this problem will be resolved or 133 could just move to BN.
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Post by vjaska on Nov 15, 2013 11:39:50 GMT
While on trailing on route 133 yesterday on my way to work, I got a brainwave that 133 would be a perfect route for NB4L to go on. Always heavily used so it could with a bus like NB4L. The only problem is that I heard the NB4L can't do hills so running light to N would be hard. Maybe with future modifications this problem will be resolved or 133 could just move to BN. A bus route that is busy like the 133 is hardly ideal for NBfL operation giving that it has a lower overall capacity than the current T's that run the route. Then there is the Liverpool Street terminus which I believe the 11's stand arrangements was modified just to fit NBfL's in so I'd highly doubt (and hopefully) that you get another route in. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2013 11:53:58 GMT
Assuming the 133 gets routed back via Moorgate following the Crossrail works, would the NBfL be able to get around Finsbury Circus? It seemed pretty tight to get through with other buses.
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Post by VPL630 on Nov 15, 2013 11:56:44 GMT
While on trailing on route 133 yesterday on my way to work, I got a brainwave that 133 would be a perfect route for NB4L to go on. Always heavily used so it could with a bus like NB4L. The only problem is that I heard the NB4L can't do hills so running light to N would be hard. Maybe with future modifications this problem will be resolved or 133 could just move to BN. A bus route that is busy like the 133 is hardly ideal for NBfL operation giving that it has a lower overall capacity than the current T's that run the route. Then there is the Liverpool Street terminus which I believe the 11's stand arrangements was modified just to fit NBfL's in so I'd highly doubt (and hopefully) that you get another route in. Most of them still can't make the turn if they don't take a wide swing... I doubt the N drivers would be happy about driving those terrible buses on the 133 |
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Post by snoggle on Nov 15, 2013 14:13:12 GMT
While on trailing on route 133 yesterday on my way to work, I got a brainwave that 133 would be a perfect route for NB4L to go on. Always heavily used so it could with a bus like NB4L. The only problem is that I heard the NB4L can't do hills so running light to N would be hard. Maybe with future modifications this problem will be resolved or 133 could just move to BN. As others have indicated I think Liverpool Street kills off this possibility. It was a struggle to get NB4Ls on route 11 and we must remember that the bus station is way under capacity because of all of the Crossrail works. In times past you had the 100, 205, 214 and 271 all running through there or terminating. They're all routed away for several years. I think TfL expect some routes to come back like the 214 and 271 but that will worsen the space for NB4Ls moving within the bus station. I think some routes will remain away from Liverpool St Station given where the entrances for the Crossrail station will be (in front of Broadgate) - the 100 and 205 spring to mind. I cannot see any buses standing at Finsbury Circus - that stop was lost years ago wasn't it? |
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Post by westhamgeezer on Nov 15, 2013 14:45:36 GMT
TfL website still states 390 to be converted from 30th Nov.......
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2013 15:35:14 GMT
Tower Transit should experiment a system on the 25 , introduce a Westbourne Park allocation.
Like someone else said tightly control departures from termini.
Scrap mid route crew change over. That doesn't work on high frequency routes, the 18 is just as bad.
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