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Post by snoggle on Sept 20, 2017 11:08:06 GMT
Yes good idea, mainly the Bromley to Sidcup link is needed so if it's just N136 then that wouldn't be that good, definitely need the N199 extended or even better would be the N119 night service extension just like what happens on the N148 extended to White City on its night service. Can't see why the N119 could be extended the direct route via the 269 route to Sidcup at least, I think Bexleyheath would be too much of an ask. The N321 carries around 62,000 pass jnys a year (last year's data). That's barely more than 1,000 a week. That rather suggests there isn't that much demand on a radial corridor through Lewisham and out to Sidcup. I'm not sure that fiddling with other radial routes would make any difference. Your objective is more about "within SE London" journeys which suggests a different approach. As we are in "felt pen" mode how about a weekend N229 over the existing 229 route then the 269 into Bromley? That links Bromley, Chislehurst WM, Sidcup, Bexley, Bexleyheath, Erith, Abbey Wood and Thamesmead. If, as expected, we get a weekend night Crossrail service, then it would give some sensible connectivity. I propose a "weekend" only service to start with as a way of testing demand when it's likely to be strongest - more weekend nightlife. If was sufficiently popular then it could be expanded to nightly. My only concern is that at weekends you'd have a ridiculous frequency of buses between Bexley and Bexleyheath (132, N21, N229). A quick look at the 229/269 timetables suggests you'd need 5 buses for a x30 headway although it'd be tight. In reality probably 6 buses to allow for breaks with drivers staying with their vehicles. |
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Post by lwldriver on Sept 20, 2017 11:42:10 GMT
Yes good idea, mainly the Bromley to Sidcup link is needed so if it's just N136 then that wouldn't be that good, definitely need the N199 extended or even better would be the N119 night service extension just like what happens on the N148 extended to White City on its night service. Can't see why the N119 could be extended the direct route via the 269 route to Sidcup at least, I think Bexleyheath would be too much of an ask. The N321 carries around 62,000 pass jnys a year (last year's data). That's barely more than 1,000 a week. That rather suggests there isn't that much demand on a radial corridor through Lewisham and out to Sidcup. I'm not sure that fiddling with other radial routes would make any difference. Your objective is more about "within SE London" journeys which suggests a different approach. As we are in "felt pen" mode how about a weekend N229 over the existing 229 route then the 269 into Bromley? That links Bromley, Chislehurst WM, Sidcup, Bexley, Bexleyheath, Erith, Abbey Wood and Thamesmead. If, as expected, we get a weekend night Crossrail service, then it would give some sensible connectivity. I propose a "weekend" only service to start with as a way of testing demand when it's likely to be strongest - more weekend nightlife. If was sufficiently popular then it could be expanded to nightly. My only concern is that at weekends you'd have a ridiculous frequency of buses between Bexley and Bexleyheath (132, N21, N229). A quick look at the 229/269 timetables suggests you'd need 5 buses for a x30 headway although it'd be tight. In reality probably 6 buses to allow for breaks with drivers staying with their vehicles. It hardly felt pen mode as you call it, I have always lived in Sidcup and am now a driver so I do know what I am talking about and hence why I am expressing what a view to be a basic need which in reality would require very little thought, one extra bus if that onto the N199? |
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Post by snoggle on Sept 20, 2017 12:16:43 GMT
It hardly felt pen mode as you call it, I have always lived in Sidcup and am now a driver so I do know what I am talking about and hence why I am expressing what a view to be a basic need which in reality would require very little thought, one extra bus if that onto the N199? Sigh! I meant the general discussion was chucking ideas around hence the ref to "felt pen mode". It was not some sort of personal slight nor am I suggesting you don't know what you are talking about. One bus on the N199 fixes your immediate demand for the link you would benefit from. My idea was to try to recognise wider potential travel demand including in the context of Crossrail opening and existing night life and likely travel patterns. Having a wider potential market is more likely to "tick boxes" in terms of the span of benefits that TfL would typically look for in considering a new route proposal. |
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Post by Paul on Sept 20, 2017 12:49:21 GMT
Yes good idea, mainly the Bromley to Sidcup link is needed so if it's just N136 then that wouldn't be that good, definitely need the N199 extended or even better would be the N119 night service extension just like what happens on the N148 extended to White City on its night service. Can't see why the N119 could be extended the direct route via the 269 route to Sidcup at least, I think Bexleyheath would be too much of an ask. The N321 carries around 62,000 pass jnys a year (last year's data). That's barely more than 1,000 a week. That rather suggests there isn't that much demand on a radial corridor through Lewisham and out to Sidcup. I'm not sure that fiddling with other radial routes would make any difference. Your objective is more about "within SE London" journeys which suggests a different approach. As we are in "felt pen" mode how about a weekend N229 over the existing 229 route then the 269 into Bromley? That links Bromley, Chislehurst WM, Sidcup, Bexley, Bexleyheath, Erith, Abbey Wood and Thamesmead. If, as expected, we get a weekend night Crossrail service, then it would give some sensible connectivity. I propose a "weekend" only service to start with as a way of testing demand when it's likely to be strongest - more weekend nightlife. If was sufficiently popular then it could be expanded to nightly. My only concern is that at weekends you'd have a ridiculous frequency of buses between Bexley and Bexleyheath (132, N21, N229). A quick look at the 229/269 timetables suggests you'd need 5 buses for a x30 headway although it'd be tight. In reality probably 6 buses to allow for breaks with drivers staying with their vehicles. The recent school holidays meant I had 'spare' days on my R Route rota. I ended up doing an early 269 and a late 269 and on both occasions the earliest trip and latest trip respectively had a number of people travelling pretty much the full distance. I've no idea what a night service would need to carry to break even but I have half an idea that a half hourly or even hourly frequency over the 269 corridor would prove popular every day of the week. I suspect most of the people I was carrying on those early and late trips were shift workers but obviously there would be greater demand at the weekend |
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Post by vjaska on Sept 20, 2017 13:30:31 GMT
My own area has always fortunately been well served at night with there currently being 4 N prefix routes (N2, N3, N109 & N133) and 5 24 hour routes (35, 37, 159, 250 & 345). Now I'm not a big user of these routes but from time to time I do see some of them and for me, the 37 is the most important because it links into three night hotspots as well as providing that important east to west link across Brixton - buses can be busy at night despite the route being unreliable at times so I'm hoping that is spared from any cuts and instead maybe introduce some reliability measures to help it out. The one route I do think may have some night demand though I could be well pushing this a bit too much is the P4 a lot of the areas it serves in between are not particularly accessed that well at night and linking into a big hotspot like Brixton could be a winner especially with the Victoria Line channeling people quickly into Central London - as 6HP502C said, the 176's cut at night would lead to the old overcrowding problems returning but with the Victoria Line leading into the P4 at Brixton, they'd be an alternative way of reaching Forest Hill or just outside of it if you will - not its primary purpose but a useful one all the same. |
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Post by stuckonthe486 on Sept 20, 2017 13:38:34 GMT
TfL doesn't really seem to think much of daytime Bromley-Sidcup links, never mind night time links - the 269 was recently trimmed back from six buses per hour to five during daytimes.
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Post by sid on Sept 20, 2017 13:42:35 GMT
My own area has always fortunately been well served at night with there currently being 4 N prefix routes (N2, N3, N109 & N133) and 5 24 hour routes (35, 37, 159, 250 & 345). Now I'm not a big user of these routes but from time to time I do see some of them and for me, the 37 is the most important because it links into three night hotspots as well as providing that important east to west link across Brixton - buses can be busy at night despite the route being unreliable at times so I'm hoping that is spared from any cuts and instead maybe introduce some reliability measures to help it out. The one route I do think may have some night demand though I could be well pushing this a bit too much is the P4 a lot of the areas it serves in between are not particularly accessed that well at night and linking into a big hotspot like Brixton could be a winner especially with the Victoria Line channeling people quickly into Central London - as 6HP502C said, the 176's cut at night would lead to the old overcrowding problems returning but with the Victoria Line leading into the P4 at Brixton, they'd be an alternative way of reaching Forest Hill or just outside of it if you will - not its primary purpose but a useful one all the same. I would certainly agree about the P4 on Friday and Saturday nights with an extension from Lewisham to either New Cross Gate or Canada Water to connect with the night tube there. I think SE London deserves a better Friday/Saturday nightbus network because of its lack of tube lines. |
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Post by sid on Sept 20, 2017 13:44:01 GMT
TfL doesn't really seem to think much of daytime Bromley-Sidcup links, never mind night time links - the 269 was recently trimmed back from six buses per hour to five during daytimes. In fairness that reduction probably was justified. |
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Post by snoggle on Sept 20, 2017 13:45:17 GMT
My own area has always fortunately been well served at night with there currently being 4 N prefix routes (N2, N3, N109 & N133) and 5 24 hour routes (35, 37, 159, 250 & 345). Now I'm not a big user of these routes but from time to time I do see some of them and for me, the 37 is the most important because it links into three night hotspots as well as providing that important east to west link across Brixton - buses can be busy at night despite the route being unreliable at times so I'm hoping that is spared from any cuts and instead maybe introduce some reliability measures to help it out. The one route I do think may have some night demand though I could be well pushing this a bit too much is the P4 a lot of the areas it serves in between are not particularly accessed that well at night and linking into a big hotspot like Brixton could be a winner especially with the Victoria Line channeling people quickly into Central London - as 6HP502C said, the 176's cut at night would lead to the old overcrowding problems returning but with the Victoria Line leading into the P4 at Brixton, they'd be an alternative way of reaching Forest Hill or just outside of it if you will - not its primary purpose but a useful one all the same. I suspect a trial weekend night service on the P4 would be an interesting thing to do. I note, though, that it hasn't had a NYE night service which is usually some sort of indicator as to what might work more generally. I suspect the dreaded "D" word, Dulwich, is the thing that stops TfL from even trying. Stagecoach don't have any electric single deckers which would potentially calm the burghers of Dulwich over noise concerns. I know the P4 has just been retendered but it's the sort of route, demands for DDs notwithstanding, where electric single deckers could get a reasonable reception from the usual objectors. |
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Post by enviroPB on Sept 21, 2017 12:35:15 GMT
My own area has always fortunately been well served at night with there currently being 4 N prefix routes (N2, N3, N109 & N133) and 5 24 hour routes (35, 37, 159, 250 & 345). Now I'm not a big user of these routes but from time to time I do see some of them and for me, the 37 is the most important because it links into three night hotspots as well as providing that important east to west link across Brixton - buses can be busy at night despite the route being unreliable at times so I'm hoping that is spared from any cuts and instead maybe introduce some reliability measures to help it out. The one route I do think may have some night demand though I could be well pushing this a bit too much is the P4 a lot of the areas it serves in between are not particularly accessed that well at night and linking into a big hotspot like Brixton could be a winner especially with the Victoria Line channeling people quickly into Central London - as 6HP502C said, the 176's cut at night would lead to the old overcrowding problems returning but with the Victoria Line leading into the P4 at Brixton, they'd be an alternative way of reaching Forest Hill or just outside of it if you will - not its primary purpose but a useful one all the same. I suspect a trial weekend night service on the P4 would be an interesting thing to do. I note, though, that it hasn't had a NYE night service which is usually some sort of indicator as to what might work more generally. I suspect the dreaded "D" word, Dulwich, is the thing that stops TfL from even trying. Stagecoach don't have any electric single deckers which would potentially calm the burghers of Dulwich over noise concerns. I know the P4 has just been retendered but it's the sort of route, demands for DDs notwithstanding, where electric single deckers could get a reasonable reception from the usual objectors. Stagecoach do have hybrid double deck vehichles, perhaps they could be used for a weekend night service on the P4?    Taking the infamously bus-loving residents of Dulwich into account, I think TfL class the night services close to the P4 route as adequate; and ultimately, having the view that there isn't that great of a demand base along the route. I've always said that a night DLR service (scheduled for 2019?) will bring more changes to night buses in south-east London, particularly in the Lewisham area. That being said, I see route 122 being chosen over the P4 for a weekend night service where a night Crossrail & DLR service at Woolwich (and maybe some rerouting at Lewisham at night) would make the weekend N122 pretty lucrative. |
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Post by sid on Sept 21, 2017 12:45:06 GMT
I suspect a trial weekend night service on the P4 would be an interesting thing to do. I note, though, that it hasn't had a NYE night service which is usually some sort of indicator as to what might work more generally. I suspect the dreaded "D" word, Dulwich, is the thing that stops TfL from even trying. Stagecoach don't have any electric single deckers which would potentially calm the burghers of Dulwich over noise concerns. I know the P4 has just been retendered but it's the sort of route, demands for DDs notwithstanding, where electric single deckers could get a reasonable reception from the usual objectors. Stagecoach do have hybrid double deck vehichles, perhaps they could be used for a weekend night service on the P4? Taking the infamously bus-loving residents of Dulwich into account, I think TfL class the night services close to the P4 route as adequate; and ultimately, having the view that there isn't that great of a demand base along the route. I've always said that a night DLR service (scheduled for 2019?) will bring more changes to night buses in south-east London, particularly in the Lewisham area. That being said, I see route 122 being chosen over the P4 for a weekend night service where a night Crossrail & DLR service at Woolwich (and maybe some rerouting at Lewisham at night) would make the weekend N122 pretty lucrative. Would a night service on the P4 necessarily have to be operated by Stagecoach? There are the two all electric single deckers at NX and the ones due for the 360 at Q. |
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Post by vjaska on Sept 21, 2017 13:18:02 GMT
Stagecoach do have hybrid double deck vehichles, perhaps they could be used for a weekend night service on the P4? Taking the infamously bus-loving residents of Dulwich into account, I think TfL class the night services close to the P4 route as adequate; and ultimately, having the view that there isn't that great of a demand base along the route. I've always said that a night DLR service (scheduled for 2019?) will bring more changes to night buses in south-east London, particularly in the Lewisham area. That being said, I see route 122 being chosen over the P4 for a weekend night service where a night Crossrail & DLR service at Woolwich (and maybe some rerouting at Lewisham at night) would make the weekend N122 pretty lucrative. Would a night service on the P4 necessarily have to be operated by Stagecoach? There are the two all electric single deckers at NX and the ones due for the 360 at Q. Well if it's a 24 hour route like I proposed, then of course it would be operated by Stagecoach. In fact, even if it was following your idea of being a N prefix route going out to Canada Water, it would still probably be operated by Stagecoach. |
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Post by sid on Sept 21, 2017 13:34:08 GMT
Would a night service on the P4 necessarily have to be operated by Stagecoach? There are the two all electric single deckers at NX and the ones due for the 360 at Q. Well if it's a 24 hour route like I proposed, then of course it would be operated by Stagecoach. In fact, even if it was following your idea of being a N prefix route going out to Canada Water, it would still probably be operated by Stagecoach. I still don't see why it would have to be operated by Stagecoach? Anyway it's largely irrelevant, it'll probably never happen and I don't suppose Dulwich residents would be demanding electric buses anyway. |
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Post by twobellstogo on Sept 21, 2017 14:15:00 GMT
Well if it's a 24 hour route like I proposed, then of course it would be operated by Stagecoach. In fact, even if it was following your idea of being a N prefix route going out to Canada Water, it would still probably be operated by Stagecoach. I still don't see why it would have to be operated by Stagecoach? Anyway it's largely irrelevant, it'll probably never happen and I don't suppose Dulwich residents would be demanding electric buses anyway. If I know Dulwich the way I think I do, there are residents who just object to buses, and electric buses are still buses, and are therefore to be demonised. |
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Post by Eastlondoner62 on Sept 21, 2017 14:16:40 GMT
I suspect a trial weekend night service on the P4 would be an interesting thing to do. I note, though, that it hasn't had a NYE night service which is usually some sort of indicator as to what might work more generally. I suspect the dreaded "D" word, Dulwich, is the thing that stops TfL from even trying. Stagecoach don't have any electric single deckers which would potentially calm the burghers of Dulwich over noise concerns. I know the P4 has just been retendered but it's the sort of route, demands for DDs notwithstanding, where electric single deckers could get a reasonable reception from the usual objectors. Stagecoach do have hybrid double deck vehichles, perhaps they could be used for a weekend night service on the P4? Taking the infamously bus-loving residents of Dulwich into account, I think TfL class the night services close to the P4 route as adequate; and ultimately, having the view that there isn't that great of a demand base along the route. I've always said that a night DLR service (scheduled for 2019?) will bring more changes to night buses in south-east London, particularly in the Lewisham area. That being said, I see route 122 being chosen over the P4 for a weekend night service where a night Crossrail & DLR service at Woolwich (and maybe some rerouting at Lewisham at night) would make the weekend N122 pretty lucrative. I've always been surprised at the fact the 122 isn't already a 24 hour service, I can see a lot of potential demand leaving Crystal Palace and going through Sydenham. As well as linking that part of south London to Lewisham. But as you say I imagine a night DLR service should almost certainly bring a night element to the 122. |
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