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Post by john on Jan 19, 2018 9:53:19 GMT
Just been reading the report about the Night Tube that Snowman linked to earlier. Here is the relevant excerpt about the impact on Night Bus services. It confirms the Night Bus review was undertaken last Summer. I have to wonder if a fall of 13 per cent justifies the level of reductions or whether the review actually looked back before the start of the night tube when night bus usage was already falling due to Uber. Therefore I wonder quite what the scope of the review was. It's quite evident that there's a drop in patronage in passengers to the outer fringes of London. From my observations of the N15 (which I board almost nightly), there are only single digit number of passengers as the Romford-bound bus departs Barking town centre. Even compared to a year ago, you'll easily see a couple douzen passengers on board for further travel past the commuter-belt town. The time savings is what drives people to Uber more, and those living in the leafy suburbs will have the cash to splash especially if they're in a group. I have a friend that I tried to convince to use the bus from Canning Town McDonald's in May last year to his home in Romford Harold Hill. Even when he was specific about where he lived, he was having none of it as the bus journey would take too long in his view to get home. Truth be told, I think Night Tube has been a precursor to those getting taxis by dropping them closer to their homes. Some are in the view that night bus travel is just beneath them. Those who simply hop on a night bus just to get closer to their destination to then take the cab, are completely bypassing the buses and using the Night Tube instead. See I never found the N15 the problem when I lived in Harold Hill. My issue was I'd get to Romford just as an N86 to Harold Hill was leaving. Now cue the 29 minute wait for the next one 😒 of course this was rare as I'd normally get an N15 that connected with an early 174 😂😂😂 |
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Post by enviroPB on Jan 20, 2018 13:39:58 GMT
After doing the last 422 to Bexleyheath garage last night, popped into the City to catch a ride on the 5bph 25N. It seems TfL has worked this one out well; 2/3 seating capacity throughout the route with people not having the free choice of where to seat anymore. As sad as it is for me to say, the swing of the axe was perfectly planned for this chop in frequencies.
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Post by busaholic on Jan 21, 2018 21:06:00 GMT
It may not be so long timewise since the weekend night services on selected day routes in conjunction with the Night Tube started, but it's almost a world away now in the sense that such new operations could even be considered, let alone implemented. This is but one reason why any new bus service to connect with the recently-introduced Overground night service at weekends to New Cross/Gate may be improbable, but I suggest a larger hurdle may be TfL rigidity.
Let me explain what I mean - the weekend night services are all absolute replicas of day routes, so using the same numbers, termini, operating garages, etc. What is needed in the case of New Cross is a dedicated night route, operating on Friday and Saturday nights only, so new contracts, blinds, ibus announcements, bus stop flags, etc would be required. Wow! Is Tfl ready for such extravagance? I suspect not - there are, after all, no N prefixed routes that only operate on selective nights of the week. But an N197 (say) from New Cross to Forest Hill and then, basically, via the 197 to Croydon would probably do good business at weekends. Actually, I suspect a daily service could be sustained on it, but we shall probabvly never know now.
Any thoughts/reactions?
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Post by sid on Jan 21, 2018 21:42:35 GMT
It may not be so long timewise since the weekend night services on selected day routes in conjunction with the Night Tube started, but it's almost a world away now in the sense that such new operations could even be considered, let alone implemented. This is but one reason why any new bus service to connect with the recently-introduced Overground night service at weekends to New Cross/Gate may be improbable, but I suggest a larger hurdle may be TfL rigidity. Let me explain what I mean - the weekend night services are all absolute replicas of day routes, so using the same numbers, termini, operating garages, etc. What is needed in the case of New Cross is a dedicated night route, operating on Friday and Saturday nights only, so new contracts, blinds, ibus announcements, bus stop flags, etc would be required. Wow! Is Tfl ready for such extravagance? I suspect not - there are, after all, no N prefixed routes that only operate on selective nights of the week. But an N197 (say) from New Cross to Forest Hill and then, basically, via the 197 to Croydon would probably do good business at weekends. Actually, I suspect a daily service could be sustained on it, but we shall probabvly never know now. Any thoughts/reactions? I did suggest something similar a while ago, an N172 from New Cross Gate to Brockley, then via the 122 to Crystal Palace and then via the 157 to Croydon. Basically a London Overground replacement service between New Cross Gate and Croydon. We really need a totally different nightbus network on Friday and Saturday nights to complement the tube but TfL seem to be to set in their ways to adapt. |
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Post by snoggle on Jan 21, 2018 23:53:15 GMT
It may not be so long timewise since the weekend night services on selected day routes in conjunction with the Night Tube started, but it's almost a world away now in the sense that such new operations could even be considered, let alone implemented. This is but one reason why any new bus service to connect with the recently-introduced Overground night service at weekends to New Cross/Gate may be improbable, but I suggest a larger hurdle may be TfL rigidity. Let me explain what I mean - the weekend night services are all absolute replicas of day routes, so using the same numbers, termini, operating garages, etc. What is needed in the case of New Cross is a dedicated night route, operating on Friday and Saturday nights only, so new contracts, blinds, ibus announcements, bus stop flags, etc would be required. Wow! Is Tfl ready for such extravagance? I suspect not - there are, after all, no N prefixed routes that only operate on selective nights of the week. But an N197 (say) from New Cross to Forest Hill and then, basically, via the 197 to Croydon would probably do good business at weekends. Actually, I suspect a daily service could be sustained on it, but we shall probabvly never know now. Any thoughts/reactions? We've debated the issue about a connecting bus to the Night Overground before. I don't think anyone has demured from the idea. I'm not so sure about TfL rigidity. I understand the point you make but there are endless examples where Night Routes do something different from day routes - N26 has unique links in it, the N550 and N551 are completely unique and have no daytime counterpart. There are plenty of other examples. I think the issues are those that have been touched on many times. Money, lack of clarity about the patronage of new services, uncertainty created by Uber and similar services. The problem we have with night time services now is "Choo Choos are sexy and politicians love them. Buses are dull and no one gets excited about them". You only need to see what happens on social media - all the railway loons go running off with video cameras and smartphones and tweet about the Night Tube or Night Overground. They all stay in bed and sleep and don't fret about Night Buses ever. Sad and pathetic but politicians are vain creatures and love all the attention - how many times has Mayor Khan had selfie-itis on Night Tube launch nights? Every time IIRC. No politicians are fighting for bus services. The Mayor doesn't understand them despite all the "my dad was a bus driver" drivel. Val Shawcross can't say anything. Caroline Pidgeon is conflicted because she supports more walking and cycling. Labour AMs, with a couple of exceptions, are all in awe of the Mayor and the Tory AMs still haven't worked out how to attack the current Mayor effectively. This means no one is holding the Mayoralty to account or arguing the case for sensible ideas like a weekend Night route to connect NXG and Croydon. |
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Post by stuckonthe486 on Jan 22, 2018 1:30:30 GMT
It may not be so long timewise since the weekend night services on selected day routes in conjunction with the Night Tube started, but it's almost a world away now in the sense that such new operations could even be considered, let alone implemented. This is but one reason why any new bus service to connect with the recently-introduced Overground night service at weekends to New Cross/Gate may be improbable, but I suggest a larger hurdle may be TfL rigidity. Let me explain what I mean - the weekend night services are all absolute replicas of day routes, so using the same numbers, termini, operating garages, etc. What is needed in the case of New Cross is a dedicated night route, operating on Friday and Saturday nights only, so new contracts, blinds, ibus announcements, bus stop flags, etc would be required. Wow! Is Tfl ready for such extravagance? I suspect not - there are, after all, no N prefixed routes that only operate on selective nights of the week. But an N197 (say) from New Cross to Forest Hill and then, basically, via the 197 to Croydon would probably do good business at weekends. Actually, I suspect a daily service could be sustained on it, but we shall probabvly never know now. Any thoughts/reactions? We've debated the issue about a connecting bus to the Night Overground before. I don't think anyone has demured from the idea. I'm not so sure about TfL rigidity. I understand the point you make but there are endless examples where Night Routes do something different from day routes - N26 has unique links in it, the N550 and N551 are completely unique and have no daytime counterpart. There are plenty of other examples. I think the issues are those that have been touched on many times. Money, lack of clarity about the patronage of new services, uncertainty created by Uber and similar services. The problem we have with night time services now is "Choo Choos are sexy and politicians love them. Buses are dull and no one gets excited about them". You only need to see what happens on social media - all the railway loons go running off with video cameras and smartphones and tweet about the Night Tube or Night Overground. They all stay in bed and sleep and don't fret about Night Buses ever. Sad and pathetic but politicians are vain creatures and love all the attention - how many times has Mayor Khan had selfie-itis on Night Tube launch nights? Every time IIRC. No politicians are fighting for bus services. The Mayor doesn't understand them despite all the "my dad was a bus driver" drivel. Val Shawcross can't say anything. Caroline Pidgeon is conflicted because she supports more walking and cycling. Labour AMs, with a couple of exceptions, are all in awe of the Mayor and the Tory AMs still haven't worked out how to attack the current Mayor effectively. This means no one is holding the Mayoralty to account or arguing the case for sensible ideas like a weekend Night route to connect NXG and Croydon. I suspect Caroline Pidgeon is simply under-resourced considering her own party's implosion at the polls, which has sapped her office's resources. It's a tragedy for London that its most effective elected politician is saddled with its most ineffective party. Incidentally, I don't think backing walking and cycling is entirely at odds with backing buses - there's a common enemy there, which is the worship of the private car. Until that is dealt with, through a crude measure like increasing the congestion charge and extending its operating hours (and its area, but Johnson killed that) or through a smarter measure such as road pricing, they're always going to be seen as being in opposition. You have to see the dog's dinner Khan is making of CS11 - a relatively mild plan to block off bits of Regents Park to create a cycle route which would have stopped it from being used as a cabbies' rat run - to see that he's trying to please everyone but is in fact pleasing nobody. Which might be a theme of his mayoralty. I'd like to know how many assembly members have the Uber app on their phones... I think the sad thing is that TfL hasn't come out fighting for night buses. We've talked a lot on other threads about technology weakening the case for bus travel - yet the frequent, flat fare night bus service we've enjoyed in recent years with new technology in your pocket is light years ahead of what people had 10+ years back, when you risked being left standing like a lemon at a bus stop for ages without knowing whether or not to walk, call a minicab or wait, an issue that speaks to many poeple's personal safety as well as convenience. Where are the ads reminding people that you won't have to pay a surge fare on the night bus, it'll always be £1.50? Or even reminding people that their use of a night bus fare on the way home helps others get to work without forking out for minicabs? (I say that because of the number of Corbyn types I know who are also enthusiastic Uber users...) Or even - as Tube ads say - reminding night bus users that their £1.50s aren't going to venture capitalists, but to improving everyone else's services? |
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Post by snoggle on Jan 22, 2018 12:35:54 GMT
Incidentally, I don't think backing walking and cycling is entirely at odds with backing buses - there's a common enemy there, which is the worship of the private car. Until that is dealt with, through a crude measure like increasing the congestion charge and extending its operating hours (and its area, but Johnson killed that) or through a smarter measure such as road pricing, they're always going to be seen as being in opposition. You have to see the dog's dinner Khan is making of CS11 - a relatively mild plan to block off bits of Regents Park to create a cycle route which would have stopped it from being used as a cabbies' rat run - to see that he's trying to please everyone but is in fact pleasing nobody. Which might be a theme of his mayoralty. I'd like to know how many assembly members have the Uber app on their phones... I think the sad thing is that TfL hasn't come out fighting for night buses. We've talked a lot on other threads about technology weakening the case for bus travel - yet the frequent, flat fare night bus service we've enjoyed in recent years with new technology in your pocket is light years ahead of what people had 10+ years back, when you risked being left standing like a lemon at a bus stop for ages without knowing whether or not to walk, call a minicab or wait, an issue that speaks to many poeple's personal safety as well as convenience. Where are the ads reminding people that you won't have to pay a surge fare on the night bus, it'll always be £1.50? Or even reminding people that their use of a night bus fare on the way home helps others get to work without forking out for minicabs? (I say that because of the number of Corbyn types I know who are also enthusiastic Uber users...) Or even - as Tube ads say - reminding night bus users that their £1.50s aren't going to venture capitalists, but to improving everyone else's services? The problem is that nothing is happening to demonstrate to car users that public transport, walking and cycling are viable alternatives. If we look at the Mini Holland in Waltham Forest all it has done is close off an enormous amount of streets, put down dangerous "Copenhagen" pavements with no driver or pedestrian education as to how they work, shove a lot of traffic on to main roads reducing them to a crawl at peak times, introduced cycle lanes that see marginal use at best and which have no guidance to cyclists to stop if a bus is at a bus stop. Oh and redesigning a major junction in E17 and stopping half way through because the original design was shown not to work and no one knows what to do about it. The end result is far slower traffic, a very small increase in cycling from what I can see and the progressive reduction in the bus network because operating speeds have dropped so much that TfL cannot afford to maintain frequencies with higher PVRs. So what we have is a slower, less frequent bus service that's almost certainly going to see more cuts and a lot of fed up car drivers whose journeys are slower and less convenient and zero promotion or persuasion about the alternatives. Why are car drivers going to be persuaded to use a worse bus service? So that's £30m spent / being spent to achieve next to nothing. I completely take your point about promotion about night buses - there is a story to be told / service to be promoted but no one is interested. The number one objective is "save money" so that is what the newbies in charge of surface transport are obsessing about and no doubt taking great delight in delivering. They will want to earn their fat performance bonus by meeting their business unit objectives. I suspect you are entirely right about about Sadiq - never wants to upset anyone so everything's a compromise which, as you say, pleases no one. You can't say the £1.50 on a bus fare is going to improve anything because the network has a £500m pa subsidy. You can make the claim for the tube as it earns a substantial operating surplus and the money does go elsewhere but even I find that I stretch given how TfL's funding does actually work. We're into Advertising Standards Authority territory here. |
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Post by busaholic on Jan 22, 2018 21:53:45 GMT
We've debated the issue about a connecting bus to the Night Overground before. I don't think anyone has demured from the idea. I'm not so sure about TfL rigidity. I understand the point you make but there are endless examples where Night Routes do something different from day routes - N26 has unique links in it, the N550 and N551 are completely unique and have no daytime counterpart. There are plenty of other examples. I think the issues are those that have been touched on many times. Money, lack of clarity about the patronage of new services, uncertainty created by Uber and similar services. The problem we have with night time services now is "Choo Choos are sexy and politicians love them. Buses are dull and no one gets excited about them". You only need to see what happens on social media - all the railway loons go running off with video cameras and smartphones and tweet about the Night Tube or Night Overground. They all stay in bed and sleep and don't fret about Night Buses ever. Sad and pathetic but politicians are vain creatures and love all the attention - how many times has Mayor Khan had selfie-itis on Night Tube launch nights? Every time IIRC. No politicians are fighting for bus services. The Mayor doesn't understand them despite all the "my dad was a bus driver" drivel. Val Shawcross can't say anything. Caroline Pidgeon is conflicted because she supports more walking and cycling. Labour AMs, with a couple of exceptions, are all in awe of the Mayor and the Tory AMs still haven't worked out how to attack the current Mayor effectively. This means no one is holding the Mayoralty to account or arguing the case for sensible ideas like a weekend Night route to connect NXG and Croydon. I suspect Caroline Pidgeon is simply under-resourced considering her own party's implosion at the polls, which has sapped her office's resources. It's a tragedy for London that its most effective elected politician is saddled with its most ineffective party. Incidentally, I don't think backing walking and cycling is entirely at odds with backing buses - there's a common enemy there, which is the worship of the private car. Until that is dealt with, through a crude measure like increasing the congestion charge and extending its operating hours (and its area, but Johnson killed that) or through a smarter measure such as road pricing, they're always going to be seen as being in opposition. You have to see the dog's dinner Khan is making of CS11 - a relatively mild plan to block off bits of Regents Park to create a cycle route which would have stopped it from being used as a cabbies' rat run - to see that he's trying to please everyone but is in fact pleasing nobody. Which might be a theme of his mayoralty. I'd like to know how many assembly members have the Uber app on their phones... I think the sad thing is that TfL hasn't come out fighting for night buses. We've talked a lot on other threads about technology weakening the case for bus travel - yet the frequent, flat fare night bus service we've enjoyed in recent years with new technology in your pocket is light years ahead of what people had 10+ years back, when you risked being left standing like a lemon at a bus stop for ages without knowing whether or not to walk, call a minicab or wait, an issue that speaks to many poeple's personal safety as well as convenience. Where are the ads reminding people that you won't have to pay a surge fare on the night bus, it'll always be £1.50? Or even reminding people that their use of a night bus fare on the way home helps others get to work without forking out for minicabs? (I say that because of the number of Corbyn types I know who are also enthusiastic Uber users...) Or even - as Tube ads say - reminding night bus users that their £1.50s aren't going to venture capitalists, but to improving everyone else's services? I think you misunderstood my point. N routes are, of course, different from day routes and many provide links that don't exist by day. The extra routes to connect with the Night Tube, though, are the daytime ones, without alteration. In the case of New Cross what would be needed is a new N route, but only running on Friday/Saturday night. That would be novel and, I suspect, unacceptable to TfL for that reason.
My apologies for coming late to the debate, the reason being my non-membership of the forum until very recently: I've spent way too much time already reading old threads, but I'm not intendeing to read everything!
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Post by snoggle on Feb 12, 2018 22:55:07 GMT
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Post by 6HP502C on Feb 13, 2018 1:26:58 GMT
Good stuff. Since the Night Overground came in, my friends and I have been going out in Shoreditch more often, used it 5 or so times since mid-December against using the 47 a grand total of twice in as many years - the 47 is a great idea, but passenger trips are lost because the decision was made to have the route run at about 6mph between stops and dwell at stops for 2-3 minutes from Shoreditch to Canada Water. As safe and conductive to reliability as that is, customers will get fed up and avoid the route if the "service regulation" announcement keeps being played at 3am when the route runs every 30 minutes and there's no traffic. With the LO, 25 minutes to get home excluding a pit stop at the chicken shop in New Cross is a very sweet deal. Think I got the 02.12 from Shoreditch High Street last time, around 60 people boarded there and I'd guess around 150 alighted at New Cross Gate. Also used it to get home after a very late small hours arrival at Liverpool Street after a pretty arduous journey from Bishop's Stortford on replacement buses. As for having a bus service running from New Cross to Croydon, my personal view is it'd need more than just the Night Overground to justify it. All stations bar Norwood Junction already have connections with weekend night rail at Brixton (N3, N109), New Cross Gate (N171) or Waterloo (176). To the best of my knowledge, except the N171, they are not busy enough by the time they reach the ELL South area to justify a relief route? Compare and contrast with the 47 being born from the N35 and N47 being severely over subscribed. The only other thing is links from Croydon towards South Norwood at night - but is there even a night scene in Croydon these days?! Trains are available between Central London and Croydon and I know people who'd seriously rather wait for the hourly rail service than sit on a bus for over an hour. It'll be interesting to see how usage of the current routes change at New Cross Gate. The peak at night at New Cross on Saturday nights is around 0200-0330 when Venue kicks out. I've gotten off N21s in Lewisham carrying upwards of 60 people at this time and it isn't unknown for the N89 to leave people behind leaving Marquis of Granby. By this point the N136 is well loaded but ok and the 321 picks up its loyal band of regulars and cruises at 30mph without stopping for miles on end! |
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Post by vjaska on Feb 13, 2018 2:04:02 GMT
Good stuff. Since the Night Overground came in, my friends and I have been going out in Shoreditch more often, used it 5 or so times since mid-December against using the 47 a grand total of twice in as many years - the 47 is a great idea, but passenger trips are lost because the decision was made to have the route run at about 6mph between stops and dwell at each stop for 3 minutes from Shoreditch to Canada Water. As safe and conductive to reliability as that is, customers will get fed up and avoid the route if the "service regulation" announcement keeps being played at 3am when the route runs every 30 minutes and there's no traffic. With the LO, 25 minutes to get home excluding a pit stop at the chicken shop in New Cross is a very sweet deal. Think I got the 02.12 from Shoreditch High Street last time, around 60 people boarded there and I'd guess around 150 alighted at New Cross Gate. Also used it to get home after a very late small hours arrival at Liverpool Street after a pretty arduous journey from Bishop's Stortford on replacement buses. As for having a bus service running from New Cross to Croydon, my personal view is it'd need more than just the Night Overground to justify it. All stations bar Norwood Junction already have connections with weekend night rail at Brixton (N3, N109), New Cross Gate (N171) or Waterloo (176). To the best of my knowledge, except the N171, they are not busy enough by the time they reach the ELL South area to justify a relief route? Compare and contrast with the 47 being born from the N35 and N47 being severely over subscribed. The only other thing is links from Croydon towards South Norwood at night - but is there even a night scene in Croydon these days?! Trains are available between Central London and Croydon and I know people who'd seriously rather wait for the hourly rail service than sit on a bus for over an hour. It'll be interesting to see how usage of the current routes change at New Cross Gate. The peak at night at New Cross on Saturday nights is around 0200-0330 when Venue kicks out. I've gotten off N21s in Lewisham carrying upwards of 60 people at this time and it isn't unknown for the N89 to leave people behind leaving Marquis of Granby. I think the night life has died in Croydon since Tiger Tiger shut it's doors - certainly, a lot of people up that way travel further north to Brixton, Clapham or Central London from the looks of things as well as from what I've heard from some friends of mine  That said, I still think there'd be some benefit to running a local night route through Norwood Junction especially if you can link in with the O2 - granted, people may just get the Jubilee into Central London and than wait for a train but if it was me personally, I'd much happier grab the bus. |
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Post by 6HP502C on Feb 13, 2018 3:28:15 GMT
I think the night life has died in Croydon since Tiger Tiger shut it's doors - certainly, a lot of people up that way travel further north to Brixton, Clapham or Central London from the looks of things as well as from what I've heard from some friends of mine That said, I still think there'd be some benefit to running a local night route through Norwood Junction especially if you can link in with the O2 - granted, people may just get the Jubilee into Central London and than wait for a train but if it was me personally, I'd much happier grab the bus. Yes - speak of that Tiger Tiger reminds me of being 18 and rocking 1 Million! A few places around there closed down - Black Sheep, Reflex, Yates etc. Not sure what has replaced them, haven't been out there for a few years now. But friends heading back to South Norwood either shared a cab or got parents to collect them. The N3 was also used to access South Norwood with a walk from Anerley - locals went out in Bromley and Crystal Palace. If I had to go from Central London to East Croydon after a night out, I'd keep some change for the train fare - Victoria and Blackfriars are pretty accessible by night. For Croydon Hospital and points north of there, would probably prefer to take the bus. |
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Post by londontravel on Feb 17, 2018 13:25:39 GMT
As the night Overground is to be extended to Highbury & Islington to connect with the Victoria Line, I wonder if people in the Shoreditch travelling to Brixton, area will now travel this way, and the 35 will see a drop in custom as a result of this?
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Post by enviroPB on Feb 17, 2018 14:45:52 GMT
I was more wondering the fate of the 277 west of Dalston Junction when the NiOv is extended to Highbury & Islington. Despite loadings being very consistent on weekday nights with 8-10 passengers from the first stop at Highbury Corner, it won't matter to TfL so my bet is the route will be culled within a matter of weeks when the Night Overground gets extended.
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Post by vjaska on Feb 17, 2018 16:03:20 GMT
As the night Overground is to be extended to Highbury & Islington to connect with the Victoria Line, I wonder if people in the Shoreditch travelling to Brixton, area will now travel this way, and the 35 will see a drop in custom as a result of this? What’s the frequency of the Overground & Victoria Line at night as well as average wait at Highbury & Islington? |
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