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Post by Deleted on Oct 18, 2014 17:50:20 GMT
TfL have been very quiet on the night bus network ... Other than saying something like the night tube would compliment the night buses.
It is a question worth raising at Mayors question time I think.
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Post by snoggle on Oct 18, 2014 18:08:10 GMT
TfL have been very quiet on the night bus network ... Other than saying something like the night tube would compliment the night buses. It is a question worth raising at Mayors question time I think. I rather suspect you would get a very bland non committal answer at this stage even if there are outline plans in existence. The Mayor won't want to say anything that might tarnish the positive image that the Night Tube has. I think there may be a consultation but I think we will be waiting until Summer for that. I think LOTS will probably have provided us with the details of the plan before then! |
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Post by snoggle on Oct 19, 2014 6:22:50 GMT
I think route N47 should be re-routed via Canada Street so it can serve Canada Water Bus Station once the Night Tube begins. 188 and N381 could also serve there during the late nights/early mornings aswell. I believe there is an operational restriction, created as part of granting planning permission for the station, that says that the bus station cannot be served during night time hours. This was to avoid disturbance to nearby residents from buses revving their engines. Clearly the night tube may well cause some issues with people expecting to be able to catch a bus at the bus station and it not being permitted. |
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Post by sid on Oct 19, 2014 10:40:17 GMT
TfL have been very quiet on the night bus network ... Other than saying something like the night tube would compliment the night buses. It is a question worth raising at Mayors question time I think. In the headlong rush to bring in 24 hour tubes has anybody even thought about what changes will need to be made to the bus network on Fri/Sat nights? |
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Post by snoggle on Oct 19, 2014 11:09:03 GMT
TfL have been very quiet on the night bus network ... Other than saying something like the night tube would compliment the night buses. It is a question worth raising at Mayors question time I think. In the headlong rush to bring in 24 hour tubes has anybody even thought about what changes will need to be made to the bus network on Fri/Sat nights? A slightly tangential answer - a few years ago there were plans to run the tube later but not necessarily all night. At the time a list of bus services was identified that would receive later last journeys so that people could get home from later tubes. Therefore, provided TfL haven't thrown their past work away, there is at least something to refer back to even if only as a starting position for reviewing what to do. I would imagine that plenty of work is being done but it will not be made public for a very long time. I also think that whatever is decided there will be people moaning their heads off about their route not running or a night bus service being cut back. I don't think there are any easy answers because people are not able to be rational - they'd just want the same buses at night as during the day if the tube is running. I'm afraid we are not going to see routes like the W12 or 462 (to quote two east london examples) running in the middle of the night regardless of the fact that they both serve a few Tube stations which will have a night service. |
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Post by John tuthill on Oct 19, 2014 12:19:37 GMT
TfL have been very quiet on the night bus network ... Other than saying something like the night tube would compliment the night buses. It is a question worth raising at Mayors question time I think. In the headlong rush to bring in 24 hour tubes has anybody even thought about what changes will need to be made to the bus network on Fri/Sat nights? Another topic, I apologise if it's already been mentioned, what about track maintenance? Some lines have only 2 or 3 hours at night for this |
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Post by vjaska on Oct 19, 2014 12:20:55 GMT
In the headlong rush to bring in 24 hour tubes has anybody even thought about what changes will need to be made to the bus network on Fri/Sat nights? Another topic, I apologise if it's already been mentioned, what about track maintenance? Some lines have only 2 or 3 hours at night for this I'd guess track maintenance will be done during the week now |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2014 12:27:47 GMT
Related to this will we have all night rail replacements on the rare occasions there will need to be engineering work?
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Post by snoggle on Oct 19, 2014 12:35:59 GMT
In the headlong rush to bring in 24 hour tubes has anybody even thought about what changes will need to be made to the bus network on Fri/Sat nights? Another topic, I apologise if it's already been mentioned, what about track maintenance? Some lines have only 2 or 3 hours at night for this TfL have renewed a lot of track on lines in recent years. They have also invested in more modern detection technology for track condition. I read something recently that said they are going to put recording units on normal rolling stock so they gather information all day allowing them to analyse a lot of data and therefore plan preventative interventions to replace track before it fails. Much of what happens today is borderline reactive because a track man is checking for cracks. If he finds one then you typically get a late start to service because eng hours overrun while the track is repaired. To be fair the instances of such late starts have reduced considerably compared to a few years ago. LU has also improved the amount of work that is done in engineering hours. Productivity levels were woeful and there has been years of work to push up the quantity and quality of work that is done. New trains, signalling systems and power supplies also require much less maintenance than in the past. This is why, Picc Line excepted, that much of the Night Tube is on lines with recent rolling stock and post upgrade for track and signalling works. The Picc is an exception because it serves the heart of the West End and Heathrow. One saving grace is that the rolling stock is by far the most reliable of any line although most rolling stock maintenance is done during the day not at night. I did a night shift at Northfields depot many years ago so I know what happens - not much, once the trains have "gone to bed".  Overall I am sure LU have done their homework in choosing the lines to run the Night Tube on and are confident they can do the required maintenance on the 5 other nights. |
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Post by John tuthill on Oct 19, 2014 12:51:36 GMT
Another topic, I apologise if it's already been mentioned, what about track maintenance? Some lines have only 2 or 3 hours at night for this TfL have renewed a lot of track on lines in recent years. They have also invested in more modern detection technology for track condition. I read something recently that said they are going to put recording units on normal rolling stock so they gather information all day allowing them to analyse a lot of data and therefore plan preventative interventions to replace track before it fails. Much of what happens today is borderline reactive because a track man is checking for cracks. If he finds one then you typically get a late start to service because eng hours overrun while the track is repaired. To be fair the instances of such late starts have reduced considerably compared to a few years ago. LU has also improved the amount of work that is done in engineering hours. Productivity levels were woeful and there has been years of work to push up the quantity and quality of work that is done. New trains, signalling systems and power supplies also require much less maintenance than in the past. This is why, Picc Line excepted, that much of the Night Tube is on lines with recent rolling stock and post upgrade for track and signalling works. The Picc is an exception because it serves the heart of the West End and Heathrow. One saving grace is that the rolling stock is by far the most reliable of any line although most rolling stock maintenance is done during the day not at night. I did a night shift at Northfields depot many years ago so I know what happens - not much, once the trains have "gone to bed". Overall I am sure LU have done their homework in choosing the lines to run the Night Tube on and are confident they can do the required maintenance on the 5 other nights. Thanks very much for that info |
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Post by sid on Oct 20, 2014 9:37:14 GMT
In the headlong rush to bring in 24 hour tubes has anybody even thought about what changes will need to be made to the bus network on Fri/Sat nights? A slightly tangential answer - a few years ago there were plans to run the tube later but not necessarily all night. At the time a list of bus services was identified that would receive later last journeys so that people could get home from later tubes. Therefore, provided TfL haven't thrown their past work away, there is at least something to refer back to even if only as a starting position for reviewing what to do. I would imagine that plenty of work is being done but it will not be made public for a very long time. I also think that whatever is decided there will be people moaning their heads off about their route not running or a night bus service being cut back. I don't think there are any easy answers because people are not able to be rational - they'd just want the same buses at night as during the day if the tube is running. I'm afraid we are not going to see routes like the W12 or 462 (to quote two east london examples) running in the middle of the night regardless of the fact that they both serve a few Tube stations which will have a night service. Hopefully TfL still have the cigarette packet that they scribbled those plans down on then I wouldn't have thought any routes would be withdrawn on Fri/Sat nights but I would imagine some considerable frequency reductions on routes like the N5 and N20 and the N9 to a lesser extent. Perhaps any buses saved off the N9 could be used to provide an N203 on Fri/Sat nights between Hatton Cross and Staines? |
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Post by 6HP502C on Oct 20, 2014 10:54:19 GMT
I think route N47 should be re-routed via Canada Street so it can serve Canada Water Bus Station once the Night Tube begins. 188 and N381 could also serve there during the late nights/early mornings aswell. I believe there is an operational restriction, created as part of granting planning permission for the station, that says that the bus station cannot be served during night time hours. This was to avoid disturbance to nearby residents from buses revving their engines. Clearly the night tube may well cause some issues with people expecting to be able to catch a bus at the bus station and it not being permitted. I'd be surprised if any such restriction is in place - the roof should keep the dBs well below a level that could reasonably be construed as intrusive or a nuisance. Given few other London bus stations have one, I suspect it was put in specifically as a compromise for those residents. There isn't much point in it being open at night anyway - it'd have to be staffed and there would be time/mileage penalties, for little, if any benefit at this moment in time. The 188 and N381 could, in theory, easily be amended to serve the bus station as they already run along Surrey Quays Road. The N47 currently bypasses Canada Water - I can't see it going via Canada Street any time soon, but there is some merit in the idea of standardising the routing with the 47 via Surrey Quays Road. The N1 avoids the Canada Water area completely, with no obvious way of a simple routing to serve Canada Water in both directions. |
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Post by snoggle on Oct 20, 2014 11:26:03 GMT
Hopefully TfL still have the cigarette packet that they scribbled those plans down on then I wouldn't have thought any routes would be withdrawn on Fri/Sat nights but I would imagine some considerable frequency reductions on routes like the N5 and N20 and the N9 to a lesser extent. Perhaps any buses saved off the N9 could be used to provide an N203 on Fri/Sat nights between Hatton Cross and Staines? I have a copy of a document that listed the routes so I can always send them it if they need it.  I broadly agree that there will probably be reductions on some of the busier routes that parellel the tube. Where I think there may be a struggle for TfL is how it balances the need for some weekend only services and its own policy of standardisation. I've long wanted to see some "Weekend 24" night buses in areas that need them but, ignoring the cost problem, they probably fail on the "run every day or on no days" consistency policy. And yes TfL obviously have M-F, M-S type services but they seem able to rationalise those exceptions to their wider policy stance. |
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Post by snoggle on Oct 20, 2014 11:31:53 GMT
I believe there is an operational restriction, created as part of granting planning permission for the station, that says that the bus station cannot be served during night time hours. This was to avoid disturbance to nearby residents from buses revving their engines. Clearly the night tube may well cause some issues with people expecting to be able to catch a bus at the bus station and it not being permitted. I'd be surprised if any such restriction is in place - the roof should keep the dBs well below a level that could reasonably be construed as intrusive or a nuisance. Given few other London bus stations have one, I suspect it was put in specifically as a compromise for those residents. There isn't much point in it being open at night anyway - it'd have to be staffed and there would be time/mileage penalties, for little, if any benefit at this moment in time. The 188 and N381 could, in theory, easily be amended to serve the bus station as they already run along Surrey Quays Road. The N47 currently bypasses Canada Water - I can't see it going via Canada Street any time soon, but there is some merit in the idea of standardising the routing with the 47 via Surrey Quays Road. The N1 avoids the Canada Water area completely, with no obvious way of a simple routing to serve Canada Water in both directions. Err I used to performance manage the PPP contract arrangements for all the Jubilee Line stations and had some interraction with the respective property leases for the buildings. We also had dealing with London Buses and the TfL property people over several sites on the JLE. I am not inventing the restriction - I am pretty sure it is a restriction in the lease. On your staffing point are you sure that's correct? There's no TfL person on duty at Walthamstow Bus Station during the night - their offices are all shuttered closed. I doubt there are TfL people on duty at places like Brent Cross, Waltham Cross or Golders Green bus stations at night either. Somewhere like Stratford may have someone in a TfL van there. |
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Post by sid on Oct 20, 2014 15:00:02 GMT
Hopefully TfL still have the cigarette packet that they scribbled those plans down on then I wouldn't have thought any routes would be withdrawn on Fri/Sat nights but I would imagine some considerable frequency reductions on routes like the N5 and N20 and the N9 to a lesser extent. Perhaps any buses saved off the N9 could be used to provide an N203 on Fri/Sat nights between Hatton Cross and Staines? I have a copy of a document that listed the routes so I can always send them it if they need it. I broadly agree that there will probably be reductions on some of the busier routes that parellel the tube. Where I think there may be a struggle for TfL is how it balances the need for some weekend only services and its own policy of standardisation. I've long wanted to see some "Weekend 24" night buses in areas that need them but, ignoring the cost problem, they probably fail on the "run every day or on no days" consistency policy. And yes TfL obviously have M-F, M-S type services but they seem able to rationalise those exceptions to their wider policy stance. Yes there must be plenty of demand already for Fri/Sat only nightbus routes and this will obviously increase when the tube start ruuning through the night. Perhaps some of these routes should be in one direction only? For instance if the 161 has a Fri/Sat night service from North Greenwich to Chislehurst it could return to NG direct via the A20. |
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