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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2014 12:25:17 GMT
Taking the N9 as an example this route serves areas of Brentford and Chiswick and Isleworth that are not on the tube and have many residents who commute on this route to Heathrow airport in the early hours so it would be foolish to break that link or reduce its frequency because it is often full to capacity by the time the early buses reach Hounslow West.
Up at Golders green people will want to be using the 183,226,240 & 328 so are TfL going to put night services at weekends on these routes ?
Same applies to services at Edgware , Stratford, North Greenwich, Ealing, Morden, etc.
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Post by snowman on Oct 23, 2014 13:27:33 GMT
Taking the N9 as an example this route serves areas of Brentford and Chiswick and Isleworth that are not on the tube and have many residents who commute on this route to Heathrow airport in the early hours so it would be foolish to break that link or reduce its frequency because it is often full to capacity by the time the early buses reach Hounslow West. Up at Golders green people will want to be using the 183,226,240 & 328 so are TfL going to put night services at weekends on these routes ? Same applies to services at Edgware , Stratford, North Greenwich, Ealing, Morden, etc. I agree with you as we had an early flight from LHR on a Sunday morning (before the tubes started), bus only had handful of passengers at Isleworth where we boarded, but was full by Hounslow West, however they were all airport workers so most got off at LHR central bus station. I suspect many would have taken the tube home as its faster so cant see the need for that frequency if tube is running. The main question is still unanswered, will there be a bus feeder network to the night tube, or will it still be based on day routes serving shops and N routes that parallel rail routes that haven't previously been open at night. There are lots of tube stations that will be newly open but without buses (keeping the West London theme, think Boston Manor, Osterley etc) but with 24 hour buses that pass within quarter to half mile away which wont link, surely that is wrong. The night bus network is different on Fri and Sat already (in frequency, if not route), at the very least the easiest solution is to make night bus frequency same all 7 nights and move the Fri, Sat extras to new routes serving the newly opened stations. Take somewhere big like Twickenham, would it be better if the night 267 was diverted and ran via the E2 route via Northfields to Ealing (with N11 cut back) is there really a demand (that isn't covered by other routes) for the Kew Bridge - Hammersmith section, what about Richmond or Kingston? is the night 65 really what is needed, or is it just because its easy to mimic the day route (and remember the 65 at night is effectively a joint 65+71 through route so doesn't 100% follow day pattern anyway). Perhaps the solution should be to restore the Kingston roundabout train at nights on Fri and Sat (decades ago it ran at nights). If TfL had any strong managers 1930s style they would use the night tube as a reason to recast the night network from scratch. Of course the current managers don't like too do anything that could be deemed a bit of hard work, even if they have had over a year to prepare a new network before it would start. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2014 13:53:17 GMT
Taking the N9 as an example this route serves areas of Brentford and Chiswick and Isleworth that are not on the tube and have many residents who commute on this route to Heathrow airport in the early hours so it would be foolish to break that link or reduce its frequency because it is often full to capacity by the time the early buses reach Hounslow West. Up at Golders green people will want to be using the 183,226,240 & 328 so are TfL going to put night services at weekends on these routes ? Same applies to services at Edgware , Stratford, North Greenwich, Ealing, Morden, etc. I agree with you as we had an early flight from LHR on a Sunday morning (before the tubes started), bus only had handful of passengers at Isleworth where we boarded, but was full by Hounslow West, however they were all airport workers so most got off at LHR central bus station. I suspect many would have taken the tube home as its faster so cant see the need for that frequency if tube is running. The main question is still unanswered, will there be a bus feeder network to the night tube, or will it still be based on day routes serving shops and N routes that parallel rail routes that haven't previously been open at night. There are lots of tube stations that will be newly open but without buses (keeping the West London theme, think Boston Manor, Osterley etc) but with 24 hour buses that pass within quarter to half mile away which wont link, surely that is wrong. The night bus network is different on Fri and Sat already (in frequency, if not route), at the very least the easiest solution is to make night bus frequency same all 7 nights and move the Fri, Sat extras to new routes serving the newly opened stations. Take somewhere big like Twickenham, would it be better if the night 267 was diverted and ran via the E2 route via Northfields to Ealing (with N11 cut back) is there really a demand (that isn't covered by other routes) for the Kew Bridge - Hammersmith section, what about Richmond or Kingston? is the night 65 really what is needed, or is it just because its easy to mimic the day route (and remember the 65 at night is effectively a joint 65+71 through route so doesn't 100% follow day pattern anyway). Perhaps the solution should be to restore the Kingston roundabout train at nights on Fri and Sat (decades ago it ran at nights). If TfL had any strong managers 1930s style they would use the night tube as a reason to recast the night network from scratch. Of course the current managers don't like too do anything that could be deemed a bit of hard work, even if they have had over a year to prepare a new network before it would start. Totally agree with you. Night tube will radically change travel patterns and there is a need for a rethink of the entire network. But as you say its all too much work and they don't want to confuse the public with different routes at night. People managed several years ago so I don't know what's different now |
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Post by snoggle on Oct 23, 2014 14:34:58 GMT
If TfL had any strong managers 1930s style they would use the night tube as a reason to recast the night network from scratch. Of course the current managers don't like too do anything that could be deemed a bit of hard work, even if they have had over a year to prepare a new network before it would start. Ooooooooooooooooooooooooooohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!! Miaow miaow scratch hiss hiss scratch miaow.  Do I detect a slight hint of dissatisfaction?   More seriously the issue is a tiny bit complex because the night tube is not running every night. If it was then I would agree a recast would probably be the thing to do once usage patterns stabilised. Having a mixed up, muddled night network that does one thing 5 days of the week and something else on 2 nights of the week is probably not a recipe for success / great for public confidence in a bit of the bus network that is popular and still seeing expansion. I would also make the obvious comment that nothing is in the public domain so we can't know if people are being lazy or are working hard and if we will see negligible change or if someone is being radical and has been told to be. I think it is a bit too early to expect to see any plans just yet. If we get to March next year and nothing has been revealed then I might well join you in being a bit cross.  My view is very much to retain the current core network as a base and then develop the idea of "weekend 24" services to fill some gaps in the network and to connect to the tube. However you hardly need be a genius to see what is going to happen. Within weeks of the night tube starting there will be strident demands for it everywhere across London *and* on the DLR *and* on the Overground *and* on National Rail.  Then you will get demands for more trains to run. Then you will get the demands for it to run on Thursdays and , oh could we have it on Wednesdays and Sundays would be really nice too.  Before you know it people will want the entire transport system running 24 hours a day and that is clearly not feasible, not needed and not affordable.  TfL and City Hall may have unleashed a monster with the Night Tube idea and let's hope they have got a clue how to tame it and properly manage public expectations before things run out of control. People just "demand" things without understanding the issues and potential consequences - "yes we can run the 118 bus all night. The only problem is that to contain costs we have to cut the daytime service by 35% and the evening service by 50% - is that OK?" "No" say the public who then also say "no" to fare increases, "no" to council tax increases and "no" to any other cuts. "Oh look is that a cake and can I have it and eat it all at the same time?  "  |
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Post by routew15 on Oct 24, 2014 15:32:08 GMT
Adding some night route suggestions into the mix of ideas:
N8^- Curtailed to Gants Hill and Extended to Romford Station (via the 66)
N34 - Walthamstow Central - Barnet Church
N58 - Chingford Mount to East Ham, Central Park (via the 158 until South Grove then the 58 to East Ham)
N75 - North Greenwich to West Croydon (via the 422 > 180 and the 75)
N97 - Extended to Heathrow Central (via the H91 > 482 and the 441)
N112 - Ealing Broadway - Turnpike Lane (via the 112 & 232)
N123 - Turnpike Lane - Ilford
N150^- Chigwell Row to Ilford (See N8)
N210 - Brent Cross - Finsbury Park
N275 - Walthamstow Central - Woodford Bridge
N307 - Brimsdown - Barnet Hospital
N474 - Wanstead to Canning Town, Hermit Road (extended via the 101)
NC11 - Archway to Brent Cross
NW14 - Leyton Mills - Woodford Bridge
NW15 - Higham Hill - Hackney Town Hall
(Destinations in bold are shorter than the day equivalent of the route)
^ These ideas could only take place if the night tube operates every night of the week
Some of the ideas have been mentioned before, some ideas are modified night bus routes that used to exist but were discontinued.
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Post by DT 11 on Oct 24, 2014 17:38:18 GMT
Adding some night route suggestions into the mix of ideas: N8^- Curtailed to Gants Hill and Extended to Romford Station (via the 66) N34 - Walthamstow Central - Barnet Church N58 - Chingford Mount to East Ham, Central Park (via the 158 until South Grove then the 58 to East Ham) N75 - North Greenwich to West Croydon (via the 422 > 180 and the 75) N97 - Extended to Heathrow Central (via the H91 > 482 and the 441) N112 - Ealing Broadway - Turnpike Lane (via the 112 & 232) N123 - Turnpike Lane - Ilford N150^- Chigwell Row to Ilford (See N8) N210 - Brent Cross - Finsbury Park N275 - Walthamstow Central - Woodford Bridge N307 - Brimsdown - Barnet Hospital N474 - Wanstead to Canning Town, Hermit Road (extended via the 101) NC11 - Archway to Brent Cross NW14 - Leyton Mills - Woodford Bridge NW15 - Higham Hill - Hackney Town Hall ( Destinations in bold are shorter than the day equivalent of the route) ^ These ideas could only take place if the night tube operates every night of the week Some of the ideas have been mentioned before, some ideas are modified night bus routes that used to exist but were discontinued. 24 Hour routes were introduced because of the C2. Why would your N275 only serve half the 275 and terminate at some dead location? Why would the W14 & W15 need night services when they go around in Circles? Most Night routes are longer than their day ones, or even two day routes in one |
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Post by snoggle on Oct 24, 2014 18:27:00 GMT
Adding some night route suggestions into the mix of ideas: N8^- Curtailed to Gants Hill and Extended to Romford Station (via the 66) N34 - Walthamstow Central - Barnet Church N58 - Chingford Mount to East Ham, Central Park (via the 158 until South Grove then the 58 to East Ham) N75 - North Greenwich to West Croydon (via the 422 > 180 and the 75) N97 - Extended to Heathrow Central (via the H91 > 482 and the 441) N112 - Ealing Broadway - Turnpike Lane (via the 112 & 232) N123 - Turnpike Lane - Ilford N150^- Chigwell Row to Ilford (See N8) N210 - Brent Cross - Finsbury Park N275 - Walthamstow Central - Woodford Bridge N307 - Brimsdown - Barnet Hospital N474 - Wanstead to Canning Town, Hermit Road (extended via the 101) NC11 - Archway to Brent Cross NW14 - Leyton Mills - Woodford Bridge NW15 - Higham Hill - Hackney Town Hall ( Destinations in bold are shorter than the day equivalent of the route) ^ These ideas could only take place if the night tube operates every night of the week Some of the ideas have been mentioned before, some ideas are modified night bus routes that used to exist but were discontinued. 24 Hour routes were introduced because of the C2. Why would your N275 only serve half the 275 and terminate at some dead location? Why would the W14 & W15 need night services when they go around in Circles? Most Night routes are longer than their day ones, or even two day routes in one I don't particularly agree with a Night W14. However the W15 is the busiest single deck route in London - way over 6m pas jnys per annum. It is definitely a route I would expect to see run at weekends given the links it gives to / from the tube in several locations. I agree that if you're going to run a night 275 that it might as well go to Barkingside. Not sure if Tesco's car park area is open overnight though. I agree with some of the other ideas and disagree with others. I can see the benefit of running some night time orbital routes but I think we may have too many in the above proposals. The 123 would be handy but may not be as heavily used as people might think. Ditto for a night 34 but I think that might do better because it links Northern, Picc and Victoria lines plus Edmonton. |
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Post by routew15 on Oct 25, 2014 9:47:40 GMT
Adding some night route suggestions into the mix of ideas: N8^- Curtailed to Gants Hill and Extended to Romford Station (via the 66) N34 - Walthamstow Central - Barnet Church N58 - Chingford Mount to East Ham, Central Park (via the 158 until South Grove then the 58 to East Ham) N75 - North Greenwich to West Croydon (via the 422 > 180 and the 75) N97 - Extended to Heathrow Central (via the H91 > 482 and the 441) N112 - Ealing Broadway - Turnpike Lane (via the 112 & 232) N123 - Turnpike Lane - Ilford N150^- Chigwell Row to Ilford (See N8) N210 - Brent Cross - Finsbury Park N275 - Walthamstow Central - Woodford Bridge N307 - Brimsdown - Barnet Hospital N474 - Wanstead to Canning Town, Hermit Road (extended via the 101) NC11 - Archway to Brent Cross NW14 - Leyton Mills - Woodford Bridge NW15 - Higham Hill - Hackney Town Hall ( Destinations in bold are shorter than the day equivalent of the route) ^ These ideas could only take place if the night tube operates every night of the week Some of the ideas have been mentioned before, some ideas are modified night bus routes that used to exist but were discontinued. 24 Hour routes were introduced because of the C2. Why would your N275 only serve half the 275 and terminate at some dead location? Why would the W14 & W15 need night services when they go around in Circles? Most Night routes are longer than their day ones, or even two day routes in one The reason I have said the N275 should terminate at Woodford Bridge is because I cannot see the residents along Tomswood Hill allowing a double decker bus to pass by every 30 mins. The W14 was a last minute addition to the list and in hindsight I don't think it would make a lot sense. The W15 however definately could use either a 24-Hour service or later running/ earlier starting buses. I've seen people running for the last 01:00 buses and the bus leave the bus station with all seats taken and people standing, bearing in mind this was a Wednesday in February and there was no special events taking place it is just the busy nature of the route. |
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Post by sid on Oct 25, 2014 10:46:27 GMT
24 Hour routes were introduced because of the C2. Why would your N275 only serve half the 275 and terminate at some dead location? Why would the W14 & W15 need night services when they go around in Circles? Most Night routes are longer than their day ones, or even two day routes in one The reason I have said the N275 should terminate at Woodford Bridge is because I cannot see the residents along Tomswood Hill allowing a double decker bus to pass by every 30 mins. The W14 was a last minute addition to the list and in hindsight I don't think it would make a lot sense. The W15 however definately could use either a 24-Hour service or later running/ earlier starting buses. I've seen people running for the last 01:00 buses and the bus leave the bus station with all seats taken and people standing, bearing in mind this was a Wednesday in February and there was no special events taking place it is just the busy nature of the route. Residents cannot dictate what vehicles go along public highways! |
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Post by routew15 on Oct 25, 2014 10:55:09 GMT
The reason I have said the N275 should terminate at Woodford Bridge is because I cannot see the residents along Tomswood Hill allowing a double decker bus to pass by every 30 mins. The W14 was a last minute addition to the list and in hindsight I don't think it would make a lot sense. The W15 however definately could use either a 24-Hour service or later running/ earlier starting buses. I've seen people running for the last 01:00 buses and the bus leave the bus station with all seats taken and people standing, bearing in mind this was a Wednesday in February and there was no special events taking place it is just the busy nature of the route. Residents cannot dictate what vehicles go along public highways! I probably should phrased that better. If the proposals were put up for consultation then I don't think that the residents of Tomswood Hill or The Avenue would want a double decker bus going along this road at all hours of the day and night. |
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Post by vjaska on Oct 25, 2014 11:19:20 GMT
The reason I have said the N275 should terminate at Woodford Bridge is because I cannot see the residents along Tomswood Hill allowing a double decker bus to pass by every 30 mins. The W14 was a last minute addition to the list and in hindsight I don't think it would make a lot sense. The W15 however definately could use either a 24-Hour service or later running/ earlier starting buses. I've seen people running for the last 01:00 buses and the bus leave the bus station with all seats taken and people standing, bearing in mind this was a Wednesday in February and there was no special events taking place it is just the busy nature of the route. Residents cannot dictate what vehicles go along public highways! Tell that to the MP who lives on the 316 or to the routes that can't go double deck due to residents fearing that burglars will use the upper deck to see if their home is worth breaking in to. |
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Post by sid on Oct 25, 2014 11:34:13 GMT
Residents cannot dictate what vehicles go along public highways! Tell that to the MP who lives on the 316 or to the routes that can't go double deck due to residents fearing that burglars will use the upper deck to see if their home is worth breaking in to. Residents on the T33 route in Selsdon Vale seem to have the same fears but if there is a daytime service on Tomswood Hill with double deckers then how can anybody object to a night service? If that was the case would be a whole host of night routes that wouldn't be allowed, especially those with noisy Volvo's which in fairness would be a reasonable objection. |
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Post by sid on Oct 25, 2014 11:37:58 GMT
Residents cannot dictate what vehicles go along public highways! I probably should phrased that better. If the proposals were put up for consultation then I don't think that the residents of Tomswood Hill or The Avenue would want a double decker bus going along this road at all hours of the day and night. I don't doubt that somebody would be complaining but seeing as the 275 runs for about 20 hours in every 24 already I don't think they would have much of a case |
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Post by vjaska on Oct 25, 2014 13:18:55 GMT
Tell that to the MP who lives on the 316 or to the routes that can't go double deck due to residents fearing that burglars will use the upper deck to see if their home is worth breaking in to. Residents on the T33 route in Selsdon Vale seem to have the same fears but if there is a daytime service on Tomswood Hill with double deckers then how can anybody object to a night service? If that was the case would be a whole host of night routes that wouldn't be allowed, especially those with noisy Volvo's which in fairness would be a reasonable objection. I don't think the noisy Volvo's are a reasonable objection because wherever you stick them, they will be inconvenient to people so I don't understand how one group of people who live along Route A are more important than the group of people who live along Route B. Also, London is already a noisy place - emergency service vehicles with sirens, dustcarts taking the trash away, motorbikes, etc, so personally, people cant really moan at Volvo fans especially when they are only around for 10-15 years and the other things I mentioned are a constant feature of London life. |
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Post by sid on Oct 25, 2014 14:45:44 GMT
Residents on the T33 route in Selsdon Vale seem to have the same fears but if there is a daytime service on Tomswood Hill with double deckers then how can anybody object to a night service? If that was the case would be a whole host of night routes that wouldn't be allowed, especially those with noisy Volvo's which in fairness would be a reasonable objection. I don't think the noisy Volvo's are a reasonable objection because wherever you stick them, they will be inconvenient to people so I don't understand how one group of people who live along Route A are more important than the group of people who live along Route B. Also, London is already a noisy place - emergency service vehicles with sirens, dustcarts taking the trash away, motorbikes, etc, so personally, people cant really moan at Volvo fans especially when they are only around for 10-15 years and the other things I mentioned are a constant feature of London life. The best place for noisy Volvo's at night is in the garage, a friend of mine lives near the 176 route and mentioned the racket they make in the dead of night, fortunately for him T's are the norm at night now. |
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Then you will get demands for more trains to run. 
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