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Post by LondonNorthern on Jul 31, 2021 11:12:35 GMT
Could to save costs the N64/N250 be merged and the N52/N297 be merged? Even for night routes the N52/N297 would just be weird route with a big U shape cos your going all the way north to the Kingsbury then just going south to Ealing, whereas the N64/N250 could work as its more streamlined, I would say a N297 extension to somewhere like Heathrow would create more links. I know the N253 has a U-shaped route, but that is on a much smaller scale though, creating useful local links. Fair enough on the front of it being convoluted but it would save costs which I imagine is a major objective in the current climate so in the case of like the N64/N250 (which would save 2 buses) the 52/297 could be merged at night whether it is in a circle or not and it be worth it.
I can't see aviation taking a boom for another few years and night services to and from the airport have been cut recently, ThamesValleys 10 service that ran to Heathrow both day and quite a lot of the night (well starts at 3) was slashed entirely as a service likely due to lackluster demand to and from the airport. Or it could very well be like is the case with a lot of neighboring towns on the London border (Harlow is getting better) where the service isn't adequate enough.
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Post by CircleLineofLife on Jul 31, 2021 11:24:33 GMT
Even for night routes the N52/N297 would just be weird route with a big U shape cos your going all the way north to the Kingsbury then just going south to Ealing, whereas the N64/N250 could work as its more streamlined, I would say a N297 extension to somewhere like Heathrow would create more links. I know the N253 has a U-shaped route, but that is on a much smaller scale though, creating useful local links. Fair enough on the front of it being convoluted but it would save costs which I imagine is a major objective in the current climate so in the case of like the N64/N250 (which would save 2 buses) the 52/297 could be merged at night whether it is in a circle or not and it be worth it.
I can't see aviation taking a boom for another few years and night services to and from the airport have been cut recently, ThamesValleys 10 service that ran to Heathrow both day and quite a lot of the night (well starts at 3) was slashed entirely as a service likely due to lackluster demand to and from the airport. Or it could very well be like is the case with a lot of neighboring towns on the London border (Harlow is getting better) where the service isn't adequate enough.
But wouldn't half the buses still terminate at Willesden instead of Ealing anyways, like the N98 and the willesden/stanmore situation, so every 15mins to Willesden and 30 mins to Ealing, as both the night bus frequencies are every half an hour I don't think it necessarily saves 2 buses an hour it will defo save closer to maybe like a bus overall, cos of the increased fuel consumption of the bus and other costs, unless my logic is wrong. |
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Post by LondonNorthern on Jul 31, 2021 11:41:05 GMT
Fair enough on the front of it being convoluted but it would save costs which I imagine is a major objective in the current climate so in the case of like the N64/N250 (which would save 2 buses) the 52/297 could be merged at night whether it is in a circle or not and it be worth it.
I can't see aviation taking a boom for another few years and night services to and from the airport have been cut recently, ThamesValleys 10 service that ran to Heathrow both day and quite a lot of the night (well starts at 3) was slashed entirely as a service likely due to lackluster demand to and from the airport. Or it could very well be like is the case with a lot of neighboring towns on the London border (Harlow is getting better) where the service isn't adequate enough.
But wouldn't half the buses still terminate at Willesden instead of Ealing anyways, like the N98 and the willesden/stanmore situation, so every 15mins to Willesden and 30 mins to Ealing, as both the night bus frequencies are every half an hour I don't think it necessarily saves 2 buses an hour it will defo save closer to maybe like a bus overall, cos of the increased fuel consumption of the bus and other costs, unless my logic is wrong. The N52 is 2bph and so is the 297.
This should make an easy merger. Even on the weekends they match the same freq. The merger would shave a bus off the PVR combined.
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Post by greenboy on Jul 31, 2021 15:16:23 GMT
But wouldn't half the buses still terminate at Willesden instead of Ealing anyways, like the N98 and the willesden/stanmore situation, so every 15mins to Willesden and 30 mins to Ealing, as both the night bus frequencies are every half an hour I don't think it necessarily saves 2 buses an hour it will defo save closer to maybe like a bus overall, cos of the increased fuel consumption of the bus and other costs, unless my logic is wrong. The N52 is 2bph and so is the 297.
This should make an easy merger. Even on the weekends they match the same freq. The merger would shave a bus off the PVR combined.
I can't see any problem with the N52/297 idea and I definitely agree about the 64/250. Maybe the N21 and 321 as well? Don't need 4bph between New Cross and Eltham (except maybe on Fri/Sat nights) and the Bexleyheath and Sidcup sections could be reduced to hourly. |
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Post by vjaska on Jul 31, 2021 16:25:57 GMT
The N52 is 2bph and so is the 297. This should make an easy merger. Even on the weekends they match the same freq. The merger would shave a bus off the PVR combined.
I can't see any problem with the N52/297 idea and I definitely agree about the 64/250. Maybe the N21 and 321 as well? Don't need 4bph between New Cross and Eltham (except maybe on Fri/Sat nights) and the Bexleyheath and Sidcup sections could be reduced to hourly. If you reduce the night service between Bexleyheath & Sidcup, then there is no point even running a service at all as no one would wait for a night bus for that length of time especially if you just missed one. No other night route in London runs hourly and for good reason. A 64 & 250 isn't a good idea at all, no need to merge every night route out today if your going to achieve little benefit at the end of it. How many people are crossing Croydon at night for example? |
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Post by twobellstogo on Jul 31, 2021 17:39:55 GMT
The N52 is 2bph and so is the 297. This should make an easy merger. Even on the weekends they match the same freq. The merger would shave a bus off the PVR combined.
I can't see any problem with the N52/297 idea and I definitely agree about the 64/250. Maybe the N21 and 321 as well? Don't need 4bph between New Cross and Eltham (except maybe on Fri/Sat nights) and the Bexleyheath and Sidcup sections could be reduced to hourly. What I think might be better is to change the N21 so it covers the 321, at 2 bph, and improve the 132 so that it runs 24 hours a day on all days of the week, with the night service at 2 bph. |
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Post by cl54 on Aug 1, 2021 7:22:24 GMT
I can't see any problem with the N52/297 idea and I definitely agree about the 64/250. Maybe the N21 and 321 as well? Don't need 4bph between New Cross and Eltham (except maybe on Fri/Sat nights) and the Bexleyheath and Sidcup sections could be reduced to hourly. What I think might be better is to change the N21 so it covers the 321, at 2 bph, and improve the 132 so that it runs 24 hours a day on all days of the week, with the night service at 2 bph. A lot of the night routes are used by cleaners and post office workers who need to get into Central London in the early hours. A 132 to North Greenwich isn't much use. I was surprised by the almost full buses on the N89 around 0400 when I used them a few years ago. People live near their route. Looking at maps and mucking around with night services isn't a good idea without research. |
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Post by LondonNorthern on Aug 1, 2021 7:48:19 GMT
I can't see any problem with the N52/297 idea and I definitely agree about the 64/250. Maybe the N21 and 321 as well? Don't need 4bph between New Cross and Eltham (except maybe on Fri/Sat nights) and the Bexleyheath and Sidcup sections could be reduced to hourly. If you reduce the night service between Bexleyheath & Sidcup, then there is no point even running a service at all as no one would wait for a night bus for that length of time especially if you just missed one. No other night route in London runs hourly and for good reason. A 64 & 250 isn't a good idea at all, no need to merge every night route out today if your going to achieve little benefit at the end of it. How many people are crossing Croydon at night for example? The benefit would be a pvr reduction of 2 in total and as you’re local are 3 buses needed down London Road at night |
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Post by greenboy on Aug 1, 2021 7:56:07 GMT
What I think might be better is to change the N21 so it covers the 321, at 2 bph, and improve the 132 so that it runs 24 hours a day on all days of the week, with the night service at 2 bph. A lot of the night routes are used by cleaners and post office workers who need to get into Central London in the early hours. A 132 to North Greenwich isn't much use. I was surprised by the almost full buses on the N89 around 0400 when I used them a few years ago. People live near their route. Looking at maps and mucking around with night services isn't a good idea without research. A lot of night routes get busier around 04.00 often giving a direct link into Central London that wouldn't be available during the daytime and often trains aren't running that early.However from what I see of the N21 to Bexleyheath it's virtually empty east of Eltham so replacing it with a 24 hour 132 or reducing the night service on the N21 to hourly, along with the night 321 to Sidcup might be a better use of resources in the current climate. In fact I've often wondered why the N75 wasn't reduced to hourly rather than withdrawing it completely. |
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Post by greenboy on Aug 1, 2021 8:11:44 GMT
If you reduce the night service between Bexleyheath & Sidcup, then there is no point even running a service at all as no one would wait for a night bus for that length of time especially if you just missed one. No other night route in London runs hourly and for good reason. A 64 & 250 isn't a good idea at all, no need to merge every night route out today if your going to achieve little benefit at the end of it. How many people are crossing Croydon at night for example? The benefit would be a pvr reduction of 2 in total and as you’re local are 3 buses needed down London Road at night Three bus routes along London Road at night is excessive, conversely no night route at all to places like Sutton and South Norwood. |
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Post by SILENCED on Aug 1, 2021 8:24:19 GMT
The benefit would be a pvr reduction of 2 in total and as you’re local are 3 buses needed down London Road at night Three bus routes along London Road at night is excessive, conversely no night route at all to places like Sutton and South Norwood. Almost definitely not. Better solution if it was not for standardisation, N250 from TH Clocktower via 50, and N68 via South Norwood Hill, High St, Selhurst Road. |
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Post by vjaska on Aug 1, 2021 11:06:51 GMT
If you reduce the night service between Bexleyheath & Sidcup, then there is no point even running a service at all as no one would wait for a night bus for that length of time especially if you just missed one. No other night route in London runs hourly and for good reason. A 64 & 250 isn't a good idea at all, no need to merge every night route out today if your going to achieve little benefit at the end of it. How many people are crossing Croydon at night for example? The benefit would be a pvr reduction of 2 in total and as you’re local are 3 buses needed down London Road at night When I talk about benefits, I’m referring to passengers not a 2 PVR reduction. Anyone crossing Croydon on the 64 and going beyond Thornton Heath Pond gains nothing but a more in direct route. Don’t know if 3 routes are needed on London Road at night but given there is a hospital there, I’d think twice before moving or merging any |
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Post by vjaska on Aug 1, 2021 11:09:11 GMT
A lot of the night routes are used by cleaners and post office workers who need to get into Central London in the early hours. A 132 to North Greenwich isn't much use. I was surprised by the almost full buses on the N89 around 0400 when I used them a few years ago. People live near their route. Looking at maps and mucking around with night services isn't a good idea without research. A lot of night routes get busier around 04.00 often giving a direct link into Central London that wouldn't be available during the daytime and often trains aren't running that early.However from what I see of the N21 to Bexleyheath it's virtually empty east of Eltham so replacing it with a 24 hour 132 or reducing the night service on the N21 to hourly, along with the night 321 to Sidcup might be a better use of resources in the current climate. In fact I've often wondered why the N75 wasn't reduced to hourly rather than withdrawing it completely. Because no one would wait for a N75 at an hourly interval hence why no night or 24 hour route runs hourly. It shouldn’t of been withdrawn and should of stayed at half hourly |
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Post by LondonNorthern on Aug 1, 2021 18:20:25 GMT
The benefit would be a pvr reduction of 2 in total and as you’re local are 3 buses needed down London Road at night When I talk about benefits, I’m referring to passengers not a 2 PVR reduction. Anyone crossing Croydon on the 64 and going beyond Thornton Heath Pond gains nothing but a more in direct route. Don’t know if 3 routes are needed on London Road at night but given there is a hospital there, I’d think twice before moving or merging any There would technically be same frequencies along the Croydon - New Addington sections of the routes & Brixton - Thornton Heath corridors but there would be a reduction along the Croydon to Thornton Heath corridor and there would still be the same frequency say if you were doing a Norbury to Croydon University journey so I don't see what the problem is with that and I understand that passengers may not see the full benefits in it at the current climate - but by the looks of things Brixton has quite a large night time market and obviously the night tube at Brixton could potentially be a hit though I do understand there is 24 hour Thameslink services at East Croydon but then lots of night time passengers using night buses do long journeys and I think the higher frequency of the Victoria Line could potentially be a hit.
I know you're local - but is Brixton traffic at night really bad? I know during the day the Brixton Hill can sometimes be a travesty and as you've mentioned LTNs have affected daytime traffic, but if there's no problems there reliability in the sense of the customer perspective would not be an issue and I'd say the only problem mainly where reliability can be a problem in a NON-COVID world would possibly be Central London?
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Post by vjaska on Aug 1, 2021 18:29:26 GMT
When I talk about benefits, I’m referring to passengers not a 2 PVR reduction. Anyone crossing Croydon on the 64 and going beyond Thornton Heath Pond gains nothing but a more in direct route. Don’t know if 3 routes are needed on London Road at night but given there is a hospital there, I’d think twice before moving or merging any There would technically be same frequencies along the Croydon - New Addington sections of the routes & Brixton - Thornton Heath corridors but there would be a reduction along the Croydon to Thornton Heath corridor and there would still be the same frequency say if you were doing a Norbury to Croydon University journey so I don't see what the problem is with that and I understand that passengers may not see the full benefits in it at the current climate - but by the looks of things Brixton has quite a large night time market and obviously the night tube at Brixton could potentially be a hit though I do understand there is 24 hour Thameslink services at East Croydon but then lots of night time passengers using night buses do long journeys and I think the higher frequency of the Victoria Line could potentially be a hit. I know you're local - but is Brixton traffic at night really bad? I know during the day the Brixton Hill can sometimes be a travesty and as you've mentioned LTNs have affected daytime traffic, but if there's no problems there reliability in the sense of the customer perspective would not be an issue and I'd say the only problem mainly where reliability can be a problem in a NON-COVID world would possibly be Central London?
I've not mentioned nothing about reliability - most 64 users at night are highly likely going to Croydon or possibly the hospital and any who are going further afield would change onto a N109. Merging the 64 & 250 simply means your sending a few people on a longer journey that has little benefit as most 250 passengers are unlikely going to cross Croydon unless coming from the hospital. A lot of people over the past few years tend to stick closer to home for nights out and I'd imagine many Croydon residents go no further than Croydon itself. The only way a merged 64 works is if the old N159 returned but as two separate routes, say a N109 from Brixton/Streatham to New Addington & a N159 from Oxford Circus to Brixton/Streatham. The 250 is better as a standalone route doing what it currently does at night |
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