FANTASY Bus extensions and routes that should be.

[ZiyQ]

I'm not sure how fantasy this is, but could the 73 be extended to Meridian Water, directly replacing the 476 which would be withdrawn, under the Meridian Water proposals? Also considering that TfL constantly want to remove buses from Oxford Street (even after the huge cuts already), the 73 could possibly be truncated to TCR (which could have some stand space if the 176's stand is reshuffled) to make the route more reliable, and the 390 likely being cited as a replacement, and the 73 should have less buses on stand anyway because of the slight PVR cuts on the route. Half of the route could possibly be curtailed at Stoke Newington, if overcapacity on the extension is an issue.

[bk10mfe]

Jun 23, 2024 15:47:34 GMT ZiyQ said:

I'm not sure how fantasy this is, but could the 73 be extended to Meridian Water, directly replacing the 476 which would be withdrawn, under the Meridian Water proposals? Also considering that TfL constantly want to remove buses from Oxford Street (even after the huge cuts already), the 73 could possibly be truncated to TCR (which could have some stand space if the 176's stand is reshuffled) to make the route more reliable, and the 390 likely being cited as a replacement, and the 73 should have less buses on stand anyway because of the slight PVR cuts on the route. Half of the route could possibly be curtailed at Stoke Newington, if overcapacity on the extension is an issue.

I think the 73 & 476 could be merged but I wouldn’t extend it up to Meridian Water despite what the consultation suggests. The 73/476 already share quite a bit in common with the 341. The W3 is definitely a better route to extend to Meridian Water, the links it provides to Wood Green, Alexandra Palace & Finsbury Park are very unique & very beneficial as well.

[sdaniel]

Jun 23, 2024 15:47:34 GMT ZiyQ said:

I'm not sure how fantasy this is, but could the 73 be extended to Meridian Water, directly replacing the 476 which would be withdrawn, under the Meridian Water proposals? Also considering that TfL constantly want to remove buses from Oxford Street (even after the huge cuts already), the 73 could possibly be truncated to TCR (which could have some stand space if the 176's stand is reshuffled) to make the route more reliable, and the 390 likely being cited as a replacement, and the 73 should have less buses on stand anyway because of the slight PVR cuts on the route. Half of the route could possibly be curtailed at Stoke Newington, if overcapacity on the extension is an issue.

I think extending the 73 up to Tottenham Hale would enough. But the 476 can definitely also be extended to Meridian Water with the W3.

[sdaniel]

Jun 23, 2024 22:02:37 GMT bk10mfe said:

Jun 23, 2024 15:47:34 GMT ZiyQ said:

I'm not sure how fantasy this is, but could the 73 be extended to Meridian Water, directly replacing the 476 which would be withdrawn, under the Meridian Water proposals? Also considering that TfL constantly want to remove buses from Oxford Street (even after the huge cuts already), the 73 could possibly be truncated to TCR (which could have some stand space if the 176's stand is reshuffled) to make the route more reliable, and the 390 likely being cited as a replacement, and the 73 should have less buses on stand anyway because of the slight PVR cuts on the route. Half of the route could possibly be curtailed at Stoke Newington, if overcapacity on the extension is an issue.

I think the 73 & 476 could be merged but I wouldn’t extend it up to Meridian Water despite what the consultation suggests. The 73/476 already share quite a bit in common with the 341. The W3 is definitely a better route to extend to Meridian Water, the links it provides to Wood Green, Alexandra Palace & Finsbury Park are very unique & very beneficial as well.

I strongly believe the 73 has been cut back way too much. The 73 used to run from Victoria to Seven Sisters but now only runs from Oxford Circus to Stoke Newington due to the lack of money TFL had at the time. Nevertheless, I think the 73 should run from Victoria to Tottenham Hale.

I also think the 390 should’ve ran from Hammersmith to Archway via, High Street Kensington, Knightsbridge, Hyde Park Corner, Marble Arch, Oxford Circus, TCR, British Museum, Russell Square, Euston, Kings Cross, York Way, Camden Road/Brecknock Road and Tufnell Park.

Lastly the 476 should be restored to terminating at Euston and extend to Meridian Water, also potentially diverted after Angel (running through Highbury & Islington Station instead of Essex Road Station). This would create a new direct bus link between Kings Cross and Highbury Corner and also make the 476 not replicate 73 too much

[bk10mfe]

Jun 23, 2024 23:28:45 GMT sdaniel said:

Jun 23, 2024 22:02:37 GMT bk10mfe said:

I think the 73 & 476 could be merged but I wouldn’t extend it up to Meridian Water despite what the consultation suggests. The 73/476 already share quite a bit in common with the 341. The W3 is definitely a better route to extend to Meridian Water, the links it provides to Wood Green, Alexandra Palace & Finsbury Park are very unique & very beneficial as well.

I strongly believe the 73 has been cut back way too much. The 73 used to run from Victoria to Seven Sisters but now only runs from Oxford Circus to Stoke Newington due to the lack of money TFL had at the time. Nevertheless, I think the 73 should run from Victoria to Tottenham Hale.

I also think the 390 should’ve ran from Hammersmith to Archway via, High Street Kensington, Knightsbridge, Hyde Park Corner, Marble Arch, Oxford Circus, TCR, British Museum, Russell Square, Euston, Kings Cross, York Way, Camden Road/Brecknock Road and Tufnell Park.

Lastly the 476 should be restored to terminating at Euston and extend to Meridian Water, also potentially diverted after Angel (running through Highbury & Islington Station instead of Essex Road Station). This would create a new direct bus link between Kings Cross and Highbury Corner and also make the 476 not replicate 73 too much

The 73 I think would be too unreliable now if it went between Victoria & Tottenham Hale. Same with the 390 running between Hammersmith & Archway. I think TfL should have gotten rid of the 390 instead of the 10 in the first place but that’s a separate issue. Rerouting the 476 via Highbury Corner isn’t really useful as it just duplicates the 30 more instead. I also don’t really see a need to extend the 476 to Meridian Water when it shares a lot of common links with the 341.

[matthieu1221]

Jun 23, 2024 15:47:34 GMT ZiyQ said:

I'm not sure how fantasy this is, but could the 73 be extended to Meridian Water, directly replacing the 476 which would be withdrawn, under the Meridian Water proposals? Also considering that TfL constantly want to remove buses from Oxford Street (even after the huge cuts already), the 73 could possibly be truncated to TCR (which could have some stand space if the 176's stand is reshuffled) to make the route more reliable, and the 390 likely being cited as a replacement, and the 73 should have less buses on stand anyway because of the slight PVR cuts on the route. Half of the route could possibly be curtailed at Stoke Newington, if overcapacity on the extension is an issue.

You'd lose what's left of the Oxford Street passengers if it were cut back to TCR.

I do actually wonder if it were possible to calculate how many passengers were lost from the 73/390 swap. As in how many ex-73 passengers didn't bother with switching to the 390 and as a result gave up on their journeys or used other modes.

[ZiyQ]

Jun 23, 2024 22:02:37 GMT bk10mfe said:

Jun 23, 2024 15:47:34 GMT ZiyQ said:

I'm not sure how fantasy this is, but could the 73 be extended to Meridian Water, directly replacing the 476 which would be withdrawn, under the Meridian Water proposals? Also considering that TfL constantly want to remove buses from Oxford Street (even after the huge cuts already), the 73 could possibly be truncated to TCR (which could have some stand space if the 176's stand is reshuffled) to make the route more reliable, and the 390 likely being cited as a replacement, and the 73 should have less buses on stand anyway because of the slight PVR cuts on the route. Half of the route could possibly be curtailed at Stoke Newington, if overcapacity on the extension is an issue.

I think the 73 & 476 could be merged but I wouldn’t extend it up to Meridian Water despite what the consultation suggests. The 73/476 already share quite a bit in common with the 341. The W3 is definitely a better route to extend to Meridian Water, the links it provides to Wood Green, Alexandra Palace & Finsbury Park are very unique & very beneficial as well.

It definitely depends on how large the demand for the development actually gets - the plans are extremely large, and the current transport links are not great, with a half-hourly service down the West Anglia mainline (which can't be increased due to capacity constraints on the 2 tracks) and the 192 and 341 already being quite full on that section (especially the 192), and being the sole links around that section. I think the 73/476 may even need to be extended in parallel to the 341, if the plans turn out to be as large as they are proposed to be. However, I also do feel some scepticism that this may end up being another 'Beam Park' example, and might be many times smaller than what is suggested by the council. I agree that the W3 would be a more useful route to extend, but the section beyond Northumberland Park might end up even needing 3 routes. I've seen a ridiculous amount of shuttle buses by Ensignbus down to Tottenham Hale for Drumsheds, which proves how big the developments may end up being if they're expanded.

[ZiyQ]

Jun 23, 2024 23:28:45 GMT sdaniel said:

Jun 23, 2024 22:02:37 GMT bk10mfe said:

I think the 73 & 476 could be merged but I wouldn’t extend it up to Meridian Water despite what the consultation suggests. The 73/476 already share quite a bit in common with the 341. The W3 is definitely a better route to extend to Meridian Water, the links it provides to Wood Green, Alexandra Palace & Finsbury Park are very unique & very beneficial as well.

I strongly believe the 73 has been cut back way too much. The 73 used to run from Victoria to Seven Sisters but now only runs from Oxford Circus to Stoke Newington due to the lack of money TFL had at the time. Nevertheless, I think the 73 should run from Victoria to Tottenham Hale.

I also think the 390 should’ve ran from Hammersmith to Archway via, High Street Kensington, Knightsbridge, Hyde Park Corner, Marble Arch, Oxford Circus, TCR, British Museum, Russell Square, Euston, Kings Cross, York Way, Camden Road/Brecknock Road and Tufnell Park.

Lastly the 476 should be restored to terminating at Euston and extend to Meridian Water, also potentially diverted after Angel (running through Highbury & Islington Station instead of Essex Road Station). This would create a new direct bus link between Kings Cross and Highbury Corner and also make the 476 not replicate 73 too much

I definitely agree with that - whilst I'm all for the 73 going back to Victoria, the traffic in Central London is just getting worse, and unless TfL really works on fixing the traffic (and removing some of the terrible 20mph speed limits), Central London routes will just get further cut back, though a long Victoria to Meridian Water bus route is what it should have always been.

[bk10mfe]

Jun 24, 2024 16:58:11 GMT ZiyQ said:

Jun 23, 2024 22:02:37 GMT bk10mfe said:

I think the 73 & 476 could be merged but I wouldn’t extend it up to Meridian Water despite what the consultation suggests. The 73/476 already share quite a bit in common with the 341. The W3 is definitely a better route to extend to Meridian Water, the links it provides to Wood Green, Alexandra Palace & Finsbury Park are very unique & very beneficial as well.

It definitely depends on how large the demand for the development actually gets - the plans are extremely large, and the current transport links are not great, with a half-hourly service down the West Anglia mainline (which can't be increased due to capacity constraints on the 2 tracks) and the 192 and 341 already being quite full on that section (especially the 192), and being the sole links around that section. I think the 73/476 may even need to be extended in parallel to the 341, if the plans turn out to be as large as they are proposed to be. However, I also do feel some scepticism that this may end up being another 'Beam Park' example, and might be many times smaller than what is suggested by the council. I agree that the W3 would be a more useful route to extend, but the section beyond Northumberland Park might end up even needing 3 routes. I've seen a ridiculous amount of shuttle buses by Ensignbus down to Tottenham Hale for Drumsheds, which proves how big the developments may end up being if they're expanded.

I’ve personally never noticed the 341 being very busy on the section between Meridian Water & Northumberland Park, it only starts to fill up at Northumberland Park heading towards Waterloo. I think even if the developments are big I think the 341 & W3 would be sufficient on that section (especially as W3 is quite high frequency). I fully agree though on the 192 & that capacity issue needs to be addressed. The easiest way to deal with that is to swap the W8 & 192 termini as I previously suggested, so that the 192’s busy corridor has a DD route on it rather than tiny 9.0m single deck vehicles. It’s bizzare to me that the very busy Tottenham/Meridian Water/Edmonton corridor has tiny single deckers while Lee Valley Leisure Complex has DD’s which is likely overkill for that section.

[ZiyQ]

Jun 24, 2024 19:53:47 GMT bk10mfe said:

Jun 24, 2024 16:58:11 GMT ZiyQ said:

It definitely depends on how large the demand for the development actually gets - the plans are extremely large, and the current transport links are not great, with a half-hourly service down the West Anglia mainline (which can't be increased due to capacity constraints on the 2 tracks) and the 192 and 341 already being quite full on that section (especially the 192), and being the sole links around that section. I think the 73/476 may even need to be extended in parallel to the 341, if the plans turn out to be as large as they are proposed to be. However, I also do feel some scepticism that this may end up being another 'Beam Park' example, and might be many times smaller than what is suggested by the council. I agree that the W3 would be a more useful route to extend, but the section beyond Northumberland Park might end up even needing 3 routes. I've seen a ridiculous amount of shuttle buses by Ensignbus down to Tottenham Hale for Drumsheds, which proves how big the developments may end up being if they're expanded.

I’ve personally never noticed the 341 being very busy on the section between Meridian Water & Northumberland Park, it only starts to fill up at Northumberland Park heading towards Waterloo. I think even if the developments are big I think the 341 & W3 would be sufficient on that section (especially as W3 is quite high frequency). I fully agree though on the 192 & that capacity issue needs to be addressed. The easiest way to deal with that is to swap the W8 & 192 termini as I previously suggested, so that the 192’s busy corridor has a DD route on it rather than tiny 9.0m single deck vehicles. It’s bizzare to me that the very busy Tottenham/Meridian Water/Edmonton corridor has tiny single deckers while Lee Valley Leisure Complex has DD’s which is likely overkill for that section.

The 341 is definitely not too busy now (unlike the 192), apart from at occasional peak periods, but there's a lot of opportunity down that section. The 73 link might also help with another Central London link. I think that considering the size of the proposals, more than one DD route may even be needed to/from Meridian Water down Watermead Way, and the W8 extension will likely be one of them.

[sdaniel]

Jun 24, 2024 19:53:47 GMT bk10mfe said:

Jun 24, 2024 16:58:11 GMT ZiyQ said:

It definitely depends on how large the demand for the development actually gets - the plans are extremely large, and the current transport links are not great, with a half-hourly service down the West Anglia mainline (which can't be increased due to capacity constraints on the 2 tracks) and the 192 and 341 already being quite full on that section (especially the 192), and being the sole links around that section. I think the 73/476 may even need to be extended in parallel to the 341, if the plans turn out to be as large as they are proposed to be. However, I also do feel some scepticism that this may end up being another 'Beam Park' example, and might be many times smaller than what is suggested by the council. I agree that the W3 would be a more useful route to extend, but the section beyond Northumberland Park might end up even needing 3 routes. I've seen a ridiculous amount of shuttle buses by Ensignbus down to Tottenham Hale for Drumsheds, which proves how big the developments may end up being if they're expanded.

I’ve personally never noticed the 341 being very busy on the section between Meridian Water & Northumberland Park, it only starts to fill up at Northumberland Park heading towards Waterloo. I think even if the developments are big I think the 341 & W3 would be sufficient on that section (especially as W3 is quite high frequency). I fully agree though on the 192 & that capacity issue needs to be addressed. The easiest way to deal with that is to swap the W8 & 192 termini as I previously suggested, so that the 192’s busy corridor has a DD route on it rather than tiny 9.0m single deck vehicles. It’s bizzare to me that the very busy Tottenham/Meridian Water/Edmonton corridor has tiny single deckers while Lee Valley Leisure Complex has DD’s which is likely overkill for that section.

I certainly agree with you concerning 192’s capacity needing to be addressed and swapping W8 & 192’s terminal. Maybe 192 could be rerouted to Northumberland Park (where W3’s current termination is) and either 144 or W6 can extend to Lee Valley Leisure Complex.

[ZiyQ]

Jun 24, 2024 20:40:11 GMT sdaniel said:

Jun 24, 2024 19:53:47 GMT bk10mfe said:

I’ve personally never noticed the 341 being very busy on the section between Meridian Water & Northumberland Park, it only starts to fill up at Northumberland Park heading towards Waterloo. I think even if the developments are big I think the 341 & W3 would be sufficient on that section (especially as W3 is quite high frequency). I fully agree though on the 192 & that capacity issue needs to be addressed. The easiest way to deal with that is to swap the W8 & 192 termini as I previously suggested, so that the 192’s busy corridor has a DD route on it rather than tiny 9.0m single deck vehicles. It’s bizzare to me that the very busy Tottenham/Meridian Water/Edmonton corridor has tiny single deckers while Lee Valley Leisure Complex has DD’s which is likely overkill for that section.

I certainly agree with you concerning 192’s capacity needing to be addressed and swapping W8 & 192’s terminal. Maybe 192 could be rerouted to Northumberland Park (where W3’s current termination is) and either 144 or W6 can extend to Lee Valley Leisure Complex.

It's usually suggested for the 192 to instead be diverted to Lea Valley Leisure Complex, to save a few buses, but I could see your idea definitely working as well. Since this is fantasyland, it might be worthwhile for me to show some of my fantasy plans for bus changes in the area. North East Fantasy Bus Review - Part 1

[sdaniel]

Jun 24, 2024 20:47:39 GMT ZiyQ said:

Jun 24, 2024 20:40:11 GMT sdaniel said:

I certainly agree with you concerning 192’s capacity needing to be addressed and swapping W8 & 192’s terminal. Maybe 192 could be rerouted to Northumberland Park (where W3’s current termination is) and either 144 or W6 can extend to Lee Valley Leisure Complex.

It's usually suggested for the 192 to instead be diverted to Lea Valley Leisure Complex, to save a few buses, but I could see your idea definitely working as well. Since this is fantasyland, it might be worthwhile for me to show some of my fantasy plans for bus changes in the area. North East Fantasy Bus Review - Part 1

Most of your changes on that link sound brilliant to be honest. You should forward this to TFL.
I particularly like the W8’s extension to Walthamstow Central, also the 215’s extension to Waltham Cross.
I also like how you proposed 191 to run from Oakwood to Brimsdown. 329’s extension to Enfield Island Village sounds great (I’ve also suggested it before in the past).

The only change I’m concerned about it merging 73 and 476 because the 73 might be too packed.

[VMH2537]

Jun 24, 2024 20:47:39 GMT ZiyQ said:

Jun 24, 2024 20:40:11 GMT sdaniel said:

I certainly agree with you concerning 192’s capacity needing to be addressed and swapping W8 & 192’s terminal. Maybe 192 could be rerouted to Northumberland Park (where W3’s current termination is) and either 144 or W6 can extend to Lee Valley Leisure Complex.

It's usually suggested for the 192 to instead be diverted to Lea Valley Leisure Complex, to save a few buses, but I could see your idea definitely working as well. Since this is fantasyland, it might be worthwhile for me to show some of my fantasy plans for bus changes in the area. North East Fantasy Bus Review - Part 1

I did enjoy reading your proposals, very neat and well structured. Some of the ideas I've suggested in the past are included.

Though there is some takeaway I'd like to add. It may be difficult to really extend the 215 anywhere further north of LV camp site from the amount of costs and funding it will require to sustain a cross border service. Requiring to be a good value for money to the London taxpayer. We've already seen the case of the 505 being slowly cut back to non existent in the area. You could extend one of the 3bph north, however again will require funding cooperation from ECC, which I doubt they'll intervene from what they've done to Loughton.

One of the main critisms of the 192/W8 proposal is the lack of efficiency within it. What I mean by this is the indirect nature of the connection the 192 may take if it were to reroute compared to what the W8 already offers. I wouldn't reduce the frequency, the demand really won't change if the reroute ever happened, it will continue to have its own demand feeding to Enfield Town and Edmonton Green from Bush Hill which is well used and almost always busy. I did personally suggest extending the W6 instead where it's still direct, but can offer new onward links to the likes of Cambridge Roundabout and Palmers Green.

Overall, you've produced a good piece on it. I'm curious myself to see part 2 of your ideas.

[ZiyQ]

Jun 24, 2024 21:20:22 GMT sdaniel said:

Jun 24, 2024 20:47:39 GMT ZiyQ said:

It's usually suggested for the 192 to instead be diverted to Lea Valley Leisure Complex, to save a few buses, but I could see your idea definitely working as well. Since this is fantasyland, it might be worthwhile for me to show some of my fantasy plans for bus changes in the area. North East Fantasy Bus Review - Part 1

Most of your changes on that link sound brilliant to be honest. You should forward this to TFL.
I particularly like the W8’s extension to Walthamstow Central, also the 215’s extension to Waltham Cross.
I also like how you proposed 191 to run from Oakwood to Brimsdown. 329’s extension to Enfield Island Village sounds great (I’ve also suggested it before in the past).

The only change I’m concerned about it merging 73 and 476 because the 73 might be too packed.

Thanks a lot for the positive feedback. Whilst some of the ideas in there might be semi-realistic, others definitely would not be under current conditions.

• Neither TfL nor Hertfordshire/Essex County Councils would likely fund this extension which crosses the Greater London Boundary, despite it being extremely useful as a new link and replacing route 505. Original Ideas  
• The new Oakwood/Chase Farm/Edmonton Green route doesn't serve Enfield Town, and may get low usage as it mainly caters to local links (so would have a maximum viable frequency of 3bph). There would also have to be 2 turning points installed on the A10 to allow the route to cross both sides of the A10 and the bridge across the New River be reopened to buses. (Original Idea was an FOI request for a bus route between Oakwood and Chase Farm)
• The 329 extension could over-bus the Enfield Town - Ponders End corridor, which already has 4 routes running across it. A new bus stand would have to be squeezed in around the Ponders End Park bus stop for the 121 to be curtailed there. Original Ideas
  
• Original 349 Ideas
  
• Original W8 ideas (though some came from Enfield Borough and other posts)