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Post by greenboy on Aug 17, 2024 8:19:00 GMT
I would have thought a Friday/Saturday night service on the W7 could be justified?
I'm not surprised about the 148 reduction, it's duplicated by the 12 and 94 at respective ends of the route and I don't think the Central section is as busy as it once was.
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Post by southlondonbus on Aug 17, 2024 10:26:21 GMT
Something that's slipped through quietly - the weekend night service on the W7 is officially withdrawn from today's timetable change, having been suspended since April 2020. Source: Bus News Flash, 16th August 2024 (via LondonsTransport Google Group)You’d have thought that would have been a successful weekend night service given that Finsbury Park has two weekend night tube lines and that the daytime W7 is such a big feeder to the tube. I guess people in Crouch End can easily interchange at Archway, Holloway Road, Turnpike Lane and Seven Sisters with the N41 and N91 and Muswell Hill at Highgate with the 43 and 134 so it didn't necessarily provide anything really unique. |
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Post by gwiwer on Aug 17, 2024 13:03:57 GMT
You’d have thought that would have been a successful weekend night service given that Finsbury Park has two weekend night tube lines and that the daytime W7 is such a big feeder to the tube. I guess people in Crouch End can easily interchange at Archway, Holloway Road, Turnpike Lane and Seven Sisters with the N41 and N91 and Muswell Hill at Highgate with the 43 and 134 so it didn't necessarily provide anything really unique. Added to which the logistics of rostering drivers for night shifts just two nights a week is harder than for a dedicated all-nights service with regular staff wishing to work nights. Have any weekend nighters returned since the Covid-induced suspension? Some were hardly used before that. |
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Post by matthieu1221 on Aug 17, 2024 13:58:55 GMT
The 148 is probably best categorised as a cut as the weekday and Saturday frequencies goes down to every 12 from every 10. I'd also never previously noticed the oddity of the weekend night service being less frequent than the weekday night service which both remain unchanged.
The W7 is also an off-peak increase and peak decrease and Sat/Sun early increase which on the whole is probably an overall increase in trips per week (?).
Rather a shame that the 148 is being reduced in frequency as it seems well used apart from the Shepherds Bush to White City Bus Station section. The lower night frequency at weekends is indeed odd. Given how often it seemed to be curtailed, a shame a PVR increase wasn't opted for rather than a frequency decrease to compensate... |
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Post by matthieu1221 on Aug 17, 2024 14:05:10 GMT
Something that's slipped through quietly - the weekend night service on the W7 is officially withdrawn from today's timetable change, having been suspended since April 2020. Source: Bus News Flash, 16th August 2024 (via LondonsTransport Google Group)You’d have thought that would have been a successful weekend night service given that Finsbury Park has two weekend night tube lines and that the daytime W7 is such a big feeder to the tube. Whilst the frequency was pretty decent (every 20m), having to change to a bus (and likely not coordinated with the tube timetable -- especially difficult when there are two lines), really would make one consider taking an Uber home directly -- especially if with a group which makes it a bit more worthwhile.
Night feeder services need a guaranteed connection time to be viable in my opinion. It'd give passengers a bit of confidence that the bus won't just jet off just as they get off the tube. Obviously a bit harder given the tube isn't publicly timetabled like an NR service but I'm sure it could be done for the night service.
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Post by enviroPB on Aug 17, 2024 20:11:48 GMT
Something that's slipped through quietly - the weekend night service on the W7 is officially withdrawn from today's timetable change, having been suspended since April 2020. Source: Bus News Flash, 16th August 2024 (via LondonsTransport Google Group)Weekend night routes were suspended March 2020, the early hours of March 15th was when they last operated. It's clear TfL aren't likely to bring weekend night routes back, it's been two years now that Night Tube started running post Covid postponement. It's nice that they have made the 123, 158 and 486 24 hour daily routes, but I think they didn't want a dozen or so public consultations for the weekend night removal element as seen with the 145 early last year. Still, the N319 did appear in the tendering programme for next year so maybe those in TfL Towers are still dancing with the idea. |
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Post by gwiwer on Aug 17, 2024 20:43:27 GMT
But where would your connection be? Night bus routes generally serve multiple tube and often NR stations. You simply cannot timetable each route to make ideal connections at every station. With the night tube running every 10 -20 minutes it should be possible to achieve reasonable waiting times without too much difficulty. Night bus routes are also subject to traffic congestion just as day routes are. How would a guaranteed connection at - say - Archway work if the bus was delayed 25 minutes in the West End on its way out?
The same is true in reverse of course. You need to plan your journey (if you can plan - some trips are made on the spur of the moment even at 3am) such that your timetabled bus allows reasonable time for you to change to a tube / train at your chosen station and complete your journey at the required time.
There can be no guarantees of connectivity in London nor indeed other major cities where road traffic affects reliability at any time of day. There is also no guarantee that rail services will run on time nor within a reasonable margin of lateness. A long way from London but an example from my own first-hand experience. In Melbourne, Australia, there is a diesel-worked outer suburban rail service to Stony Point taking off from where the electrified network ends at Frankston. I was aboard the last train from the City to Frankston which had a booked connection onto the Stony Point train one evening; that was at around 22.00. A few stops up the line we were delayed for half an hour while the police attended to remove an unruly passenger. The connection was not held. The train crew had to complete their duty on time or run out of permitted hours. We were told to take taxis and no there wasn't any refund.
That sort of thing can happen anywhere any time and cause lost connections. They should not be advertised as such in cities where the service is sufficiently frequent that a wait of no more than 20 minutes would normally be incurred.
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Post by Eastlondoner62 on Aug 17, 2024 21:05:22 GMT
Something that's slipped through quietly - the weekend night service on the W7 is officially withdrawn from today's timetable change, having been suspended since April 2020. Source: Bus News Flash, 16th August 2024 (via LondonsTransport Google Group)Weekend night routes were suspended March 2020, the early hours of March 15th was when they last operated. It's clear TfL aren't likely to bring weekend night routes back, it's been two years now that Night Tube started running post Covid postponement. It's nice that they have made the 123, 158 and 486 24 hour daily routes, but I think they didn't want a dozen or so public consultations for the weekend night removal element as seen with the 145 early last year. Still, the N319 did appear in the tendering programme for next year so maybe those in TfL Towers are still dancing with the idea. I don't think any of them are coming back, the 145 consultation was probably them making a song and dance about how people in Dagenham kept crying out for a night route and then nobody used it. There were multiple routes like the 114 which had even lower usage than the 145 so would by proxy probably not justify themselves either. |
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Post by gwiwer on Aug 17, 2024 22:53:41 GMT
One issue with a weekend-only night route is that of target users. If you have a well-defined flow to and from a centre of night-time entertainment then it might work. It will not work if you are hoping to capture the night-shift workers of the world who require transport on any and all nights of the week. Even the large numbers of students who can fill nightclubs in some suburban areas (Kingston being one) are often out on a Wednesday as much as any other night. For that reason among many others the 213 and 281 work where some others failed. The H37 never attracted very many users. Hounslow has a night-time economy of sorts; Richmond not so much. Not many of those who spend their nights out in Hounslow would live along the H37 LOR; put nicely the properties are too expensive in Isleworth. If you really need to get from Hounslow to Richmond at 2am on a Saturday morning and don't want to wait or pay for an Uber there are other options. N9 / N65 or 281 / N22 or N33 will often (depending upon waiting time for the second bus) set you back no more than a Hopper fare.
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Post by Paul on Aug 18, 2024 11:56:11 GMT
At last 314 will become every 20 minutes all day Sunday which is a bonus for Elmstead Wood/Hayes/Addington people who live there nearby. Rather than waiting for bus too long if miss it. It’s long overdue - on the rare occasions I’ve done a 314 on a Sunday the over crowding has been immense. In fact I don’t think every 20 minutes goes far enough |
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Post by evergreenadam on Aug 18, 2024 13:27:03 GMT
At last 314 will become every 20 minutes all day Sunday which is a bonus for Elmstead Wood/Hayes/Addington people who live there nearby. Rather than waiting for bus too long if miss it. It’s long overdue - on the rare occasions I’ve done a 314 on a Sunday the over crowding has been immense. In fact I don’t think every 20 minutes goes far enough Out of interest which part of the route was overcrowded? |
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Post by Paul on Aug 18, 2024 14:46:17 GMT
It’s long overdue - on the rare occasions I’ve done a 314 on a Sunday the over crowding has been immense. In fact I don’t think every 20 minutes goes far enough Out of interest which part of the route was overcrowded? Pretty much all of it - very busy from New Eltham to Bromley and between Bromley and New Addington. A lot of the route isn’t covered by other routes and the 314 is the only option. In the late afternoon on a Sunday you’ll usually observe very full 314s leaving Bromley heading towards Eltham I still remember doing a 314 shift on a Sunday when we were supposed to be restricting access to the bus due to Covid. If I’d tried to do that I’d probably have been lynched! There was simply too many people wanting the bus to enforce those restrictions and it was because of the inadequate frequency |
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Post by matthieu1221 on Aug 18, 2024 19:52:43 GMT
But where would your connection be? Night bus routes generally serve multiple tube and often NR stations. You simply cannot timetable each route to make ideal connections at every station. With the night tube running every 10 -20 minutes it should be possible to achieve reasonable waiting times without too much difficulty. Night bus routes are also subject to traffic congestion just as day routes are. How would a guaranteed connection at - say - Archway work if the bus was delayed 25 minutes in the West End on its way out? The same is true in reverse of course. You need to plan your journey (if you can plan - some trips are made on the spur of the moment even at 3am) such that your timetabled bus allows reasonable time for you to change to a tube / train at your chosen station and complete your journey at the required time. There can be no guarantees of connectivity in London nor indeed other major cities where road traffic affects reliability at any time of day. There is also no guarantee that rail services will run on time nor within a reasonable margin of lateness. A long way from London but an example from my own first-hand experience. In Melbourne, Australia, there is a diesel-worked outer suburban rail service to Stony Point taking off from where the electrified network ends at Frankston. I was aboard the last train from the City to Frankston which had a booked connection onto the Stony Point train one evening; that was at around 22.00. A few stops up the line we were delayed for half an hour while the police attended to remove an unruly passenger. The connection was not held. The train crew had to complete their duty on time or run out of permitted hours. We were told to take taxis and no there wasn't any refund. That sort of thing can happen anywhere any time and cause lost connections. They should not be advertised as such in cities where the service is sufficiently frequent that a wait of no more than 20 minutes would normally be incurred. Only the rail feeder routes would be guaranteed a connection. The W7 is probably one of the only optimal examples as a clear railhead service from Fin Park. I don't mean the usual night services which, though ideal, would be impossible to coordinate with the tube.
Marseille has/had a different concept in the evening whereby buses leaving the feeder bus interchange at metro stations would have an indicator telling them to hold if a metro just arrived to enable a connection to avoid passengers just missing a service (10+ minute metro interval in the evening I believe).
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Post by Eastlondoner62 on Aug 18, 2024 20:35:23 GMT
One issue with a weekend-only night route is that of target users. If you have a well-defined flow to and from a centre of night-time entertainment then it might work. It will not work if you are hoping to capture the night-shift workers of the world who require transport on any and all nights of the week. Even the large numbers of students who can fill nightclubs in some suburban areas (Kingston being one) are often out on a Wednesday as much as any other night. For that reason among many others the 213 and 281 work where some others failed. The H37 never attracted very many users. Hounslow has a night-time economy of sorts; Richmond not so much. Not many of those who spend their nights out in Hounslow would live along the H37 LOR; put nicely the properties are too expensive in Isleworth. If you really need to get from Hounslow to Richmond at 2am on a Saturday morning and don't want to wait or pay for an Uber there are other options. N9 / N65 or 281 / N22 or N33 will often (depending upon waiting time for the second bus) set you back no more than a Hopper fare. This was an interesting analysis to read, something I'd thought of but hadn't looked too much into it. I think the only weekend night routes that could be classed as any sort of success were the 123, 158 and 486 which all then subsequently got 24/7 services. In general if someone is on a night out they're unlikely to time their return home with one of the every 30 minute 307s or 145s, I can assure you that the last thing I do after a night out is attempt to time any bus that I get  People after a night out might head for the night tube but will then just use an Uber if the bus is too far away as the Uber is probably cheaper closer to home by that point. Shift workers as you say are unlikely to rely on them as they're not running over weekday nights. |
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Post by greenboy on Aug 18, 2024 20:38:28 GMT
Out of interest which part of the route was overcrowded? Pretty much all of it - very busy from New Eltham to Bromley and between Bromley and New Addington. A lot of the route isn’t covered by other routes and the 314 is the only option. In the late afternoon on a Sunday you’ll usually observe very full 314s leaving Bromley heading towards Eltham I still remember doing a 314 shift on a Sunday when we were supposed to be restricting access to the bus due to Covid. If I’d tried to do that I’d probably have been lynched! There was simply too many people wanting the bus to enforce those restrictions and it was because of the inadequate frequency I've seen packed buses leaving Bromley 16-17.00 as shops are closing particularly towards Eltham, in the other direction there are other alternatives to Hayes, but I think it's ridiculous that the Sunday daytime service hasn't been increased sooner. |
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People after a night out might head for the night tube but will then just use an Uber if the bus is too far away as the Uber is probably cheaper closer to home by that point.