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Post by vjaska on Sept 7, 2016 12:10:21 GMT
I appreciate your opinion regarding this matter. However I wouldn't go to the extent of saying it's impossible to retrofit an effective Air Cooling System. Regarding your first point, it's not a matter of retrofitting a whole new system, rather fixing something that isn't working as intended. Having an ineffective Air Cooling system is obviously a hindrance due to the added weight and power consumption without having a purposeful function, therefore they should either exist and work properly or disappear completely and make do with opening windows. I'm personally more inclined to the former. I partly agree with your second point, no one will be satisfied due to differences. However judging by how it is currently during hot days, people are already unable to tolerate the intense heat within buses so it's either they get on a very hot bus to get to their destination or not, the former is obviously the only choice at the moment therefore they would have to cope with uncomfortable conditions regardless. On the other hand if the Air Cooling systems work properly then I doubt having windows would be an obstacle, people would be in a more pleasant environment which would therefore diminish the possibility of complaints and disappointment. Well it quite clearly is impossible to do because otherwise someone would have done it by now! TfL and Wrightbus have had 4 batches (prototypes included) to get this right. They haven't done so given the consistent reporting of inconsistent temperature control - I'm being generous here and accepting that some people have experienced satisfactory journeys on LTs even in warm weather. My view is that the NB4L's design simply creates far, far too much heat at the rear of the vehicle and because of the rear staircase, platform and door there is no real opportunity to properly manage that heat generation and stop it propogating into the vehicle nor is there anywhere else to put the vent positions where the air is presumably sucked into the bus for ducting via the air cooling system. In short the design's wrong. It's also clear that no one has been prepared to say "hang on, let's actually redesign some of this bus so vents are in a different place, the engine / batteries are far better insulated and let's put in different ducts and more powerful air cooling". Strikes me that would be too great an admission of failure to contemplate and would damage Darling Heatherwick's "design". IIRC TfL said that the "200 extra" order (from 609 onwards) were going to be better insulated - any evidence that they are? I've not seen any great reduction in complaints on routes more recently converted. Your aspiration to make the air cooling system "work" is perfectly decent but I just don't think TfL and Wrightbus can do it. They're starting in the wrong place and we're all stuck with the consequences for 14 years at least. The ones on the 3, 59, 68 & 159 are all built after the 609 original buses and personally, they do not feel any cooler than the original ones. I've had the odd one which has actually been ok but they are outnumbered by the many which aren't ok.
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Post by fg49 on Sept 7, 2016 12:43:10 GMT
I must be really fortunate when it comes to LTs, I've only had around 3 boiling journeys out of about 80 and these came on the 137 last year. I'm generally on an LT at least 4 times a week in more recent times with the BN, QB and SW batches but I have noticed that the Euro 6 buses are much more cooler than the Euro 5's.
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Post by astock5000 on Sept 7, 2016 20:31:45 GMT
Thank you for providing a decent reply. The buses I saw were over the Carnival weekend so there may have been some from V in amongst the others. I'll need to look back at my snaps but I'm convinced I saw one bus from the 148's batch without opening windows. Buses on the 73 don't seem to have been done nor the 137 but I saw one converted bus on the 16 but I suspect that was from another batch of buses that had slipped on to the 16. It's the seeming randonmess of the conversions that gets me. Even allowing for the fact some garages may have tight allocations it must surely be more efficient to do one garage at a time and get all the buses done and then move on? I must be missing some important factor given they're not being done like that. Again why do S and not then wander down the road to V and get all of London United's buses done and finished? Seems most odd to me. I suspect it is to do with tight allocations. If the contractors have more than one team of people it would make sense for them to work at different garages for that reason, though it doesn't explain why so many garages' fleets are part completed yet the rate of the work has been slower than expected. The only garages that I haven't seen any buses fitted yet are V, CT and SF, while S is the only one that may be completed. There are a number of LTs at Brixton with opening windows, and work appears to have recently started at Cricklewood. The 16's batch is fully mixed with the other LTs at the garage and I'm not aware of any of Holloway's buses being loaned there. Of the LTs originally delivered for the 16 I can confirm that LT551 / 554 have been done and it is likely there are now others. I was in London today and travelled on LT783 (not yet fitted with opening windows but a recent delivery, apparently with improved insulation in the engine bay) on route 211 from Waterloo to Victoria, sitting on the lower deck on one of the first row of rearward facing seats. It was quite warm inside, but the weather was hot today and it didn't feel any hotter on board. The air cooling was definitely working on this bus, I could feel air coming through the vents in the ceiling which while not particularly cold was cooler than the interior temperature. The seat itself did feel a bit warm, but while waiting to get off at the rear door I touched the panelling in several areas, including one of the strips round the steps and the panels near the engine bay, and none felt any hotter than other interior surfaces. This also happened to be my 50th journey on a New Routemaster. I'd estimate that roughly one third of the LTs I saw today were fitted with opening windows. This includes LT279 / 289 from route 453's batch, which means yet another garage has been started (though I wonder if they would have actually been modified at Camberwell).
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Post by sid on Sept 7, 2016 20:54:03 GMT
I must be really fortunate when it comes to LTs, I've only had around 3 boiling journeys out of about 80 and these came on the 137 last year. I'm generally on an LT at least 4 times a week in more recent times with the BN, QB and SW batches but I have noticed that the Euro 6 buses are much more cooler than the Euro 5's. I've been equally fortunate, in fact I can only recall one abnormally hot journey on a 24 not long after the route was converted, otherwise all good!
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Post by twobellstogo on Sept 7, 2016 21:09:00 GMT
I must be really fortunate when it comes to LTs, I've only had around 3 boiling journeys out of about 80 and these came on the 137 last year. I'm generally on an LT at least 4 times a week in more recent times with the BN, QB and SW batches but I have noticed that the Euro 6 buses are much more cooler than the Euro 5's. I've been equally fortunate, in fact I can only recall one abnormally hot journey on a 24 not long after the route was converted, otherwise all good! Lucky you... I would say about one in three of my LT journeys in summer are unacceptably hot - much of the LT is fine, I find them comfortable, aesthetically pleasing, and it's lovely to ride in a London vehicle that isn't mainly blue inside. Posh kitchens and bathrooms can be blue, not bus interiors! The heat issue (and it is an issue, still) spoils a generally pleasant bus.
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Post by rmz19 on Sept 8, 2016 2:31:32 GMT
I've been equally fortunate, in fact I can only recall one abnormally hot journey on a 24 not long after the route was converted, otherwise all good! Lucky you... I would say about one in three of my LT journeys in summer are unacceptably hot - much of the LT is fine, I find them comfortable, aesthetically pleasing, and it's lovely to ride in a London vehicle that isn't mainly blue inside. Posh kitchens and bathrooms can be blue, not bus interiors! The heat issue (and it is an issue, still) spoils a generally pleasant bus. By 'blue' I assume you mean the blue interior colours adopted by Metroline. I'm rather fond of this colour scheme as it portrays a tranquil appearance and looks visually appealing, one of my favourite colours for bus interiors. I digress!
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Post by twobellstogo on Sept 8, 2016 11:34:04 GMT
Lucky you... I would say about one in three of my LT journeys in summer are unacceptably hot - much of the LT is fine, I find them comfortable, aesthetically pleasing, and it's lovely to ride in a London vehicle that isn't mainly blue inside. Posh kitchens and bathrooms can be blue, not bus interiors! The heat issue (and it is an issue, still) spoils a generally pleasant bus. By 'blue' I assume you mean the blue interior colours adopted by Metroline. I'm rather fond of this colour scheme as it portrays a tranquil appearance and looks visually appealing, one of my favourite colours for bus interiors. I digress! Metroline, Go-Ahead and to a lesser extent Stagecoach are all guilty!
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Post by snoggle on Sept 9, 2016 11:57:03 GMT
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Post by rambo on Sept 9, 2016 21:29:30 GMT
Lets be honest, the whole aircon issue on these buses has been a disgrace. How on earth anyone with half a brain can think a forced air system will cool a bus with no upper windows is beyond me.
The biggest disgrace is that no one has lost their job over this.
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Post by snowman on Sept 10, 2016 6:29:43 GMT
Lets be honest, the whole aircon issue on these buses has been a disgrace. How on earth anyone with half a brain can think a forced air system will cool a bus with no upper windows is beyond me. The biggest disgrace is that no one has lost their job over this. Totally agree, has to be accountability, instead they probably promoted someone who was involved Back in real world (at least bit of world within M25 called TfL fantasyland), it never exceeds 20c in afternoons for more than few days a year, buses only steam up if not air conditioned for no more than two days a year, it never rains so never any puddles on floor which need air drying. TfL have correctly calculated that air conditioning is only needed for few days per year so not required. My estimate is about 100-130 days for temp, about 50-80 for steaming up, and rain occurs 50-120 days. Some overlap but air conditioning would be needed well over half the year. Therefore stop these air coolers on new spec buses (which were designed as a retrofit interim solution) and do job properly. It doesn't need to be as massive (and heavy and power hungry) as those in other countries, we don't get temps in 40s, therefore dropping 10c max is ok in London. But please fit proper a/c.
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Post by twobellstogo on Sept 10, 2016 9:14:27 GMT
Tra la la la la { Banana Splits theme tune } Even Uncle Leon has declared them to be a thing of the past. Oh sob sob sob. Part of a bigger article on the BBC London website by Tom Edwards. Nothing there that we didn't already know. Leon is right : in 2011 LTs were fairly cutting edge. Time passes, now they are not, and it looks like electric technology is on the cusp of being mainstream. No LT, no hybrid indeed can compete with that. Give it 10-15 years or so, and I predict the only non-electric buses left with TfL will be the RMs.
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Post by sid on Sept 10, 2016 9:21:49 GMT
Lets be honest, the whole aircon issue on these buses has been a disgrace. How on earth anyone with half a brain can think a forced air system will cool a bus with no upper windows is beyond me. The biggest disgrace is that no one has lost their job over this. Most buses I've been on with a forced air system, LT's and other types, have been ok.
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Post by rambo on Sept 13, 2016 21:20:05 GMT
6pm tonight in the drivers cab!
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