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Post by vjaska on Sept 6, 2016 17:31:49 GMT
They all have air cooling but a large number of them simply blow out warm/hot air or don't work at all. I've yet to try one with windows but that's worrying that you've had a LT with windows that was little help in being cool. If an LT has faulty air cooling, no amount of opening windows will make a jot of difference, I'm afraid. I was on LT665 (the one that went to Singapore when new) with opening windows last month. All windows open, and so unbearably hot on both decks I had to leave the bus after three stops. The hot air blowing out of the 'cooling' system trumps the opening windows, it seems. Fair enough and thanks for your balanced view, much appreciated. |
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Post by sid on Sept 6, 2016 18:20:21 GMT
If an LT has faulty air cooling, no amount of opening windows will make a jot of difference, I'm afraid. I was on LT665 (the one that went to Singapore when new) with opening windows last month. All windows open, and so unbearably hot on both decks I had to leave the bus after three stops. The hot air blowing out of the 'cooling' system trumps the opening windows, it seems. Exactly. Which is why there was no point in implementing opening windows on LTs in the first place as a measure to allegedly enable a cooler environment when it doesn't, a waste of money really. The money could be better spent towards making their Air Cooling systems actually work. Save for some of them working wonders on certain buses, I suppose the same could be said for other buses too. Personally, opening windows should be erradicated on all buses and replaced by effective Air Cooling systems, with vents to allow air inside for the sake of freshness. I agree that opening windows should be eradicated on all buses and replaced by effective air cooling systems which most modern buses have, including LT's! Coaches don't have opening windows so why do buses need them? |
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Post by snoggle on Sept 6, 2016 20:29:17 GMT
Oh gosh, haven't done this subject before     I haven't noticed any with opening windows although I haven't particularly been looking, are they being done in some sort of order? No need for the sarcy reply.  It was *actually* a genuine question as to whether the programme was on track rather than a "swipe" about the bus itself. Other people on here are in Central London far more than I am and others may have access to official information. I've yet to see much coherence in the work being done - I'd have expected all the 148s I saw to have opening windows. They didn't despite Shepherds Bush being the first (?) garage to have window conversions. That's partly what prompted my question. |
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Post by snoggle on Sept 6, 2016 20:37:50 GMT
Exactly. Which is why there was no point in implementing opening windows on LTs in the first place as a measure to allegedly enable a cooler environment when it doesn't, a waste of money really. The money could be better spent towards making their Air Cooling systems actually work. Save for some of them working wonders on certain buses, I suppose the same could be said for other buses too. Personally, opening windows should be erradicated on all buses and replaced by effective Air Cooling systems, with vents to allow air inside for the sake of freshness. Surely the fundamental point here is that is simply not possible to retrofit an effective air cooling system in NB4Ls? The bus design mitigates against it. You therefore have an impossibility. The other point here is that unless you have a powerful and cool system on a bus then you will *always* have people who want an open window and circulating air. Everyone has a different tolerance to warmth, cold, humidity and moving air. Therefore you have another impossibility - you will never satisfy everyone. We have done the weight, cost, fuel use and environmental issues associated with full air conditioning given London's climate to death on here. No one in authority will sanction full air con because they'd be ripped to shreds by people whose support they rely on. Mayor Khan will never sanction it because it would be contrary to his air quality agenda. Therefore you have a third impossibility. You therefore have three impossibilities on this issue. There is no effective solution that can be "sold" and which is acceptable. In those circumstances TfL have opted for a compromise - probably a messy and ineffective one but such is life when you're forced to buy 1,000 buses you never wanted to a relatively untried and under developed design. |
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Post by SILENCED on Sept 6, 2016 20:43:12 GMT
Exactly. Which is why there was no point in implementing opening windows on LTs in the first place as a measure to allegedly enable a cooler environment when it doesn't, a waste of money really. The money could be better spent towards making their Air Cooling systems actually work. Save for some of them working wonders on certain buses, I suppose the same could be said for other buses too. Personally, opening windows should be erradicated on all buses and replaced by effective Air Cooling systems, with vents to allow air inside for the sake of freshness. I agree that opening windows should be eradicated on all buses and replaced by effective air cooling systems which most modern buses have, including LT's! Coaches don't have opening windows so why do buses need them? They woukd need to be either tri-axle double decks or single decks due to weight restraints. The former does not seem to be in favour by TfL, so unless you are advocating a wholesale single deck conversion, then it aint likely to happen, Oh, and the 2nd reason is cost ... probably need to chop a good few routes to pay for it. |
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Post by sid on Sept 6, 2016 21:01:20 GMT
I agree that opening windows should be eradicated on all buses and replaced by effective air cooling systems which most modern buses have, including LT's! Coaches don't have opening windows so why do buses need them? They woukd need to be either tri-axle double decks or single decks due to weight restraints. The former does not seem to be in favour by TfL, so unless you are advocating a wholesale single deck conversion, then it aint likely to happen, Oh, and the 2nd reason is cost ... probably need to chop a good few routes to pay for it. Most modern buses have adequate air cooling so opening windows are not needed. |
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Post by SILENCED on Sept 6, 2016 21:12:01 GMT
They woukd need to be either tri-axle double decks or single decks due to weight restraints. The former does not seem to be in favour by TfL, so unless you are advocating a wholesale single deck conversion, then it aint likely to happen, Oh, and the 2nd reason is cost ... probably need to chop a good few routes to pay for it. Most modern buses have adequate air cooling so opening windows are not needed. Seriously, you believe that! |
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Post by sid on Sept 6, 2016 21:18:32 GMT
Most modern buses have adequate air cooling so opening windows are not needed. Seriously, you believe that! Seriously man! I do travel on buses, Stagecoach 12280 recently and somebody was complaining that it was too cold! |
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Post by astock5000 on Sept 6, 2016 22:10:19 GMT
I've yet to see much coherence in the work being done - I'd have expected all the 148s I saw to have opening windows. They didn't despite Shepherds Bush being the first (?) garage to have window conversions. That's partly what prompted my question. When did you see those buses? Shepherds Bush was indeed the first, the work began in April and all buses there were fitted by July at the latest (with the possible exception of LT142 which was under repair for the first half of the year as I haven't either seen that one myself or found any photos of it since it returned to service). However a handful of buses have been loaned from Stamford Brook since then, along with many buses from V operating the route during the Notting Hill Carnival and I have yet to see any LTs based at V that have opening windows. Another batch almost completed are the buses for route 91, with only LT745 / 750 / 752 / ST812 not known to have opening windows. Though I wonder how quickly ST812 will be done considering it has a non-standard window bay. By the way my lists show 126 LTs fitted so far, but I suspect the actual number to be significantly higher as I don't visit Central London that often. Also as there are so many LTs in service now and the first batches have been around for three years, there tends to be a lot fewer photos uploaded of each individual bus. |
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Post by rmz19 on Sept 6, 2016 23:24:09 GMT
Exactly. Which is why there was no point in implementing opening windows on LTs in the first place as a measure to allegedly enable a cooler environment when it doesn't, a waste of money really. The money could be better spent towards making their Air Cooling systems actually work. Save for some of them working wonders on certain buses, I suppose the same could be said for other buses too. Personally, opening windows should be erradicated on all buses and replaced by effective Air Cooling systems, with vents to allow air inside for the sake of freshness. Surely the fundamental point here is that is simply not possible to retrofit an effective air cooling system in NB4Ls? The bus design mitigates against it. You therefore have an impossibility. The other point here is that unless you have a powerful and cool system on a bus then you will *always* have people who want an open window and circulating air. Everyone has a different tolerance to warmth, cold, humidity and moving air. Therefore you have another impossibility - you will never satisfy everyone. I appreciate your opinion regarding this matter. However I wouldn't go to the extent of saying it's impossible to retrofit an effective Air Cooling System. Regarding your first point, it's not a matter of retrofitting a whole new system, rather fixing something that isn't working as intended. Having an ineffective Air Cooling system is obviously a hindrance due to the added weight and power consumption without having a purposeful function, therefore they should either exist and work properly or disappear completely and make do with opening windows. I'm personally more inclined to the former. I partly agree with your second point, no one will be satisfied due to differences. However judging by how it is currently during hot days, people are already unable to tolerate the intense heat within buses so it's either they get on a very hot bus to get to their destination or not, the former is obviously the only choice at the moment therefore they would have to cope with uncomfortable conditions regardless. On the other hand if the Air Cooling systems work properly then I doubt having windows would be an obstacle, people would be in a more pleasant environment which would therefore diminish the possibility of complaints and disappointment. |
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Post by vjaska on Sept 7, 2016 0:37:22 GMT
If an LT has faulty air cooling, no amount of opening windows will make a jot of difference, I'm afraid. I was on LT665 (the one that went to Singapore when new) with opening windows last month. All windows open, and so unbearably hot on both decks I had to leave the bus after three stops. The hot air blowing out of the 'cooling' system trumps the opening windows, it seems. Exactly. Which is why there was no point in implementing opening windows on LTs in the first place as a measure to allegedly enable a cooler environment when it doesn't, a waste of money really. The money could be better spent towards making their Air Cooling systems actually work. Save for some of them working wonders on certain buses, I suppose the same could be said for other buses too. Personally, opening windows should be erradicated on all buses and replaced by effective Air Cooling systems, with vents to allow air inside for the sake of freshness. Given that opening windows provide fairly cool air into the saloon and are far more reliable than a cooling system, it would be foolish to remove windows altogether. Instead, sliding windows like the ones on Titans, Metrobuses, Olympians, etc. should be re-introduced (I know LT's are being retrofitted with sliding windows but having not used one yet with it's sliding windows, I can't determine how good they are  |
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Post by astock5000 on Sept 7, 2016 1:41:38 GMT
Given that opening windows provide fairly cool air into the saloon and are far more reliable than a cooling system, it would be foolish to remove windows altogether. Instead, sliding windows like the ones on Titans, Metrobuses, Olympians, etc. should be re-introduced (I know LT's are being retrofitted with sliding windows but having not used one yet with it's sliding windows, I can't determine how good they are I haven't yet travelled on an LT with opening windows so in this post I'm comparing LTs with no opening windows to other types, or commenting on opening windows in general. Surely whether they provide cool air depends on the outside temperature compared to that inside the bus. Passengers might think they are cooler when there's an open window creating a breeze but they only cool the bus when the interior is hotter than outside. The interior temperature would be higher with no cooling or ventilation due to various reasons, but I don't believe open windows are any more effective in bringing it down to around the outside temperature than the air cooling systems fitted to London buses, in fact it has been stated that the average temperatures on New Routemasters (with air cooling working normally, of course) are no higher than other buses in the fleet. Air cooling on any bus is of course more efficient when no windows are open. Sliding windows are definitely more effective than hopper windows, especially when sitting alongside them. However neither work well when the vehicle is not moving, which can be much of the time on some journeys. It is impossible to please everyone but at least with no opening windows there aren't situations such as a passenger deciding to open a window for fresh air while it is raining. However that does make me realise that an advantage they do have is providing fresh air, I've said before that while I've never had any issues with LTs being too hot inside (other than a journey on route 24 shortly after conversion and before an issue with the air cooling was fixed) the air isn't always that fresh. And while air cooling equipment isn't silent, the noise it makes is not nearly as noticeable as that of traffic when windows are opened. When a bus is running on batteries only that can result in an almost silent journey. As a result, my opinion has always been that opening windows weren't needed on LTs, though now they are being fitted I hope the work will be completed soon and that it will then be the end of this whole debate. And at least the sliding windows themselves aren't as noticeable from the outside as I was worried they would be. |
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Post by snowman on Sept 7, 2016 6:05:52 GMT
Oh gosh, haven't done this subject before I haven't noticed any with opening windows although I haven't particularly been looking, are they being done in some sort of order? No need for the sarcy reply. It was *actually* a genuine question as to whether the programme was on track rather than a "swipe" about the bus itself. Other people on here are in Central London far more than I am and others may have access to official information. I've yet to see much coherence in the work being done - I'd have expected all the 148s I saw to have opening windows. They didn't despite Shepherds Bush being the first (?) garage to have window conversions. That's partly what prompted my question. I wonder if the opening window programme has been quietly dropped or delayed. Certainly not being done by this summer. My guess is they didn't make much difference. Probably turned out that a number of cooling units weren't functioning (otherwise why are some buses cool, others blowing out warm air). So solution would be to repair the faulty bus. It ought to be as easy to check before leaving the garage as testing wheelchair ramp, turn it on, wait a minute, and see if air coming out is few degrees cooler than ambient. Don't need to wait to middle of afternoon miles from a garage to check this. The other thing, is opening windows are probably lot less effective than sticking some heat insulation where bodywork joins the engine bay. No point in cooling air 5c, then having the rear stair panelling +15c as that will just warm it straight back up. The real solution is probably in keeping engine bay cooler so heat doesn't leak into the saloons. |
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Post by snoggle on Sept 7, 2016 9:34:03 GMT
I've yet to see much coherence in the work being done - I'd have expected all the 148s I saw to have opening windows. They didn't despite Shepherds Bush being the first (?) garage to have window conversions. That's partly what prompted my question. When did you see those buses? Shepherds Bush was indeed the first, the work began in April and all buses there were fitted by July at the latest (with the possible exception of LT142 which was under repair for the first half of the year as I haven't either seen that one myself or found any photos of it since it returned to service). However a handful of buses have been loaned from Stamford Brook since then, along with many buses from V operating the route during the Notting Hill Carnival and I have yet to see any LTs based at V that have opening windows. Another batch almost completed are the buses for route 91, with only LT745 / 750 / 752 / ST812 not known to have opening windows. Though I wonder how quickly ST812 will be done considering it has a non-standard window bay. By the way my lists show 126 LTs fitted so far, but I suspect the actual number to be significantly higher as I don't visit Central London that often. Also as there are so many LTs in service now and the first batches have been around for three years, there tends to be a lot fewer photos uploaded of each individual bus. Thank you for providing a decent reply. The buses I saw were over the Carnival weekend so there may have been some from V in amongst the others. I'll need to look back at my snaps but I'm convinced I saw one bus from the 148's batch without opening windows. Buses on the 73 don't seem to have been done nor the 137 but I saw one converted bus on the 16 but I suspect that was from another batch of buses that had slipped on to the 16. It's the seeming randonmess of the conversions that gets me. Even allowing for the fact some garages may have tight allocations it must surely be more efficient to do one garage at a time and get all the buses done and then move on? I must be missing some important factor given they're not being done like that. Again why do S and not then wander down the road to V and get all of London United's buses done and finished? Seems most odd to me. |
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Post by snoggle on Sept 7, 2016 9:44:41 GMT
Surely the fundamental point here is that is simply not possible to retrofit an effective air cooling system in NB4Ls? The bus design mitigates against it. You therefore have an impossibility. The other point here is that unless you have a powerful and cool system on a bus then you will *always* have people who want an open window and circulating air. Everyone has a different tolerance to warmth, cold, humidity and moving air. Therefore you have another impossibility - you will never satisfy everyone. I appreciate your opinion regarding this matter. However I wouldn't go to the extent of saying it's impossible to retrofit an effective Air Cooling System. Regarding your first point, it's not a matter of retrofitting a whole new system, rather fixing something that isn't working as intended. Having an ineffective Air Cooling system is obviously a hindrance due to the added weight and power consumption without having a purposeful function, therefore they should either exist and work properly or disappear completely and make do with opening windows. I'm personally more inclined to the former. I partly agree with your second point, no one will be satisfied due to differences. However judging by how it is currently during hot days, people are already unable to tolerate the intense heat within buses so it's either they get on a very hot bus to get to their destination or not, the former is obviously the only choice at the moment therefore they would have to cope with uncomfortable conditions regardless. On the other hand if the Air Cooling systems work properly then I doubt having windows would be an obstacle, people would be in a more pleasant environment which would therefore diminish the possibility of complaints and disappointment. Well it quite clearly is impossible to do because otherwise someone would have done it by now! TfL and Wrightbus have had 4 batches (prototypes included) to get this right. They haven't done so given the consistent reporting of inconsistent temperature control - I'm being generous here and accepting that some people have experienced satisfactory journeys on LTs even in warm weather. My view is that the NB4L's design simply creates far, far too much heat at the rear of the vehicle and because of the rear staircase, platform and door there is no real opportunity to properly manage that heat generation and stop it propogating into the vehicle nor is there anywhere else to put the vent positions where the air is presumably sucked into the bus for ducting via the air cooling system. In short the design's wrong. It's also clear that no one has been prepared to say "hang on, let's actually redesign some of this bus so vents are in a different place, the engine / batteries are far better insulated and let's put in different ducts and more powerful air cooling". Strikes me that would be too great an admission of failure to contemplate and would damage Darling Heatherwick's "design". IIRC TfL said that the "200 extra" order (from 609 onwards) were going to be better insulated - any evidence that they are? I've not seen any great reduction in complaints on routes more recently converted. Your aspiration to make the air cooling system "work" is perfectly decent but I just don't think TfL and Wrightbus can do it. They're starting in the wrong place and we're all stuck with the consequences for 14 years at least. |
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It was *actually* a genuine question as to whether the programme was on track rather than a "swipe" about the bus itself. Other people on here are in Central London far more than I am and others may have access to official information.
