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Post by gwiwer on Jul 21, 2024 16:19:01 GMT
Some historical context here.
The GN suburban electrification of the 1970s went into Moorgate as a means to keep that route open and to free Kings Cross of what was planned to be a much more frequent service of inner-suburban trains than anywhere on the line had previously had. Kings Cross had insufficient platform and track capacity for the proposed 3 - 5 minute headway out to Alexandra Palace. Had the City Widened Lines remained open and had some major track alterations between Kings Cross and Finsbury Park either not been done or been done differently then that route could have been used via York Road into Moorgate and out via Hotel Curve towards the suburbs. There were only two platforms at Moorgate either way so the working was going to be tight.
The "spark effect" certainly took hold of the new service from 1976; peak-time trains were often filled to capacity before they even reached Alexandra Palace leaving those at that statin, Hornsey and Harringay (those latter two only having booked calls by every second or third train anyway) behind. A train every 3 - 5 minutes was barely adequate in the peaks. Off-peak it got busier and a 2-car Cravens DMU every half-hour as previously would not have coped.
The honeymoon soon ended. Moorgate wasn't the best destination for most off-peak passengers despite the route having excellent interchange with the Victoria Line at Highbury & Islington. Late evening and then weekend trains reverted to Kings Cross at times when it had more capacity.
Along came Thameslink. As that project grew and grew so it opened up many more journey opportunities and it has done two of the jobs it set out to do; distributing passengers around the network rather than funnelling them into one line of route and offering direct cross-London journeys with, at most, one same-platform interchange in the core.
Post-Covid the Moorgate branch has remained under-used but the newest timetable seeks to address some of the imbalance of services there which had been offered at uneven 5 - 20 minute gaps. Services to both WGC and Hertford lines have been much reduced from the 1970s peak. I couldn't say whether demand led supply or vice versa.
Thameslink is still perhaps trying to do too much in terms of offering "Anywhere to Everywhere" direct cross-London links. There is ample platform capacity to make a single change at Kings Cross or City and usually at Farringdon too. The core service can actually be marginally thinned which would improve reliability rather than increased. Many Thameslink trains run lightly-loaded beyond the outer London suburbs. It is wasteful to have 12-car fixed-formation trains running around mostly empty most of the time. Some of the 8-car duties are also very little-used .
On the GN route Thameslink provides the faster services to outer suburbs and regional towns some of which were once served by those GN Electrics; places such as Letchworth have gained better and faster services right through London rather than a stopper to Moorgate via Hertford. A one-change option exists for many journeys via Finsbury Park. If you travel from Hornsey to Kings Cross you can change there or at Highbury; the customer has more choice.
The Moorgate service is almost as moribund as it was under LT days as its Northern City Line. Essex Road is a ghost station. Even Old Street which is an interchange with the Northern Line and close to Moorfields Hospital is dreadfully quiet on the GN side. Drayton Park has never been busy. Except when a certain football team is playing at home next door.
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Post by ADH45258 on Jul 21, 2024 17:46:44 GMT
Some historical context here. The GN suburban electrification of the 1970s went into Moorgate as a means to keep that route open and to free Kings Cross of what was planned to be a much more frequent service of inner-suburban trains than anywhere on the line had previously had. Kings Cross had insufficient platform and track capacity for the proposed 3 - 5 minute headway out to Alexandra Palace. Had the City Widened Lines remained open and had some major track alterations between Kings Cross and Finsbury Park either not been done or been done differently then that route could have been used via York Road into Moorgate and out via Hotel Curve towards the suburbs. There were only two platforms at Moorgate either way so the working was going to be tight. The "spark effect" certainly took hold of the new service from 1976; peak-time trains were often filled to capacity before they even reached Alexandra Palace leaving those at that statin, Hornsey and Harringay (those latter two only having booked calls by every second or third train anyway) behind. A train every 3 - 5 minutes was barely adequate in the peaks. Off-peak it got busier and a 2-car Cravens DMU every half-hour as previously would not have coped. The honeymoon soon ended. Moorgate wasn't the best destination for most off-peak passengers despite the route having excellent interchange with the Victoria Line at Highbury & Islington. Late evening and then weekend trains reverted to Kings Cross at times when it had more capacity. Along came Thameslink. As that project grew and grew so it opened up many more journey opportunities and it has done two of the jobs it set out to do; distributing passengers around the network rather than funnelling them into one line of route and offering direct cross-London journeys with, at most, one same-platform interchange in the core. Post-Covid the Moorgate branch has remained under-used but the newest timetable seeks to address some of the imbalance of services there which had been offered at uneven 5 - 20 minute gaps. Services to both WGC and Hertford lines have been much reduced from the 1970s peak. I couldn't say whether demand led supply or vice versa. Thameslink is still perhaps trying to do too much in terms of offering "Anywhere to Everywhere" direct cross-London links. There is ample platform capacity to make a single change at Kings Cross or City and usually at Farringdon too. The core service can actually be marginally thinned which would improve reliability rather than increased. Many Thameslink trains run lightly-loaded beyond the outer London suburbs. It is wasteful to have 12-car fixed-formation trains running around mostly empty most of the time. Some of the 8-car duties are also very little-used . On the GN route Thameslink provides the faster services to outer suburbs and regional towns some of which were once served by those GN Electrics; places such as Letchworth have gained better and faster services right through London rather than a stopper to Moorgate via Hertford. A one-change option exists for many journeys via Finsbury Park. If you travel from Hornsey to Kings Cross you can change there or at Highbury; the customer has more choice. The Moorgate service is almost as moribund as it was under LT days as its Northern City Line. Essex Road is a ghost station. Even Old Street which is an interchange with the Northern Line and close to Moorfields Hospital is dreadfully quiet on the GN side. Drayton Park has never been busy. Except when a certain football team is playing at home next door. Considering the lower usage at Moorgate, I wonder if the tunnelled section could just be withdrawn with no replacement (on the basis of diverting Great Northern services through the Thameslink core)? Particularly considering Essex Road & Drayton Park see very few passengers, and the other stations have other options available. There's the Victoria line from Finsbury Park to Kings Cross, with easy interchange there for the Northern line to Old Street and Moorgate. Plus the Overground from Highbury to Shoreditch, and local buses like the 21. And if GN services were sent through the Thameslink core, Farringdon and City Thameslink provide good access to the city, or with easy interchange at Farringdon to the Circle/H&C/Met for Moorgate etc. While the Thameslink project has some advantages in terms of capacity, connections etc, I think it just doesn't quite work as an overall service, since it's basically multiple types of train service rolled into one. And as a result, the Class 700s used are a compromise to meet the different requirements. Mixed seating types (like on the 345s) might be preferrable for shorter journeys to provide more standing space - but equally the 700s lack plug sockets, tables etc which are ideal for longer journeys to Brighton/Cambridge/etc (where something like a 387 would be more suitable). In my opinion the Elizabeth Line is an example of what Thameslink should have been. Ideally Thameslink should be run by TFL, with routes swapped around so that longer distance ones divert to London terminal stations, and more metro-style ones through the core. Lots of options of which routes you could include south of the river, but to the north I would say to keep the current MML services to St Albans and Luton, then adding the stoppers to Welwyn/Hertford/etc. Maybe even the Watford Overground route, diverting via Camden Road into St Pancras? Then if the platform capacity is there, I think the Bedford services could more logically fit under the EMR Luton Express brand, and Cambridge/Peterborough services back to Kings Cross again.
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Post by vjaska on Jul 21, 2024 18:47:50 GMT
Some historical context here. The GN suburban electrification of the 1970s went into Moorgate as a means to keep that route open and to free Kings Cross of what was planned to be a much more frequent service of inner-suburban trains than anywhere on the line had previously had. Kings Cross had insufficient platform and track capacity for the proposed 3 - 5 minute headway out to Alexandra Palace. Had the City Widened Lines remained open and had some major track alterations between Kings Cross and Finsbury Park either not been done or been done differently then that route could have been used via York Road into Moorgate and out via Hotel Curve towards the suburbs. There were only two platforms at Moorgate either way so the working was going to be tight. The "spark effect" certainly took hold of the new service from 1976; peak-time trains were often filled to capacity before they even reached Alexandra Palace leaving those at that statin, Hornsey and Harringay (those latter two only having booked calls by every second or third train anyway) behind. A train every 3 - 5 minutes was barely adequate in the peaks. Off-peak it got busier and a 2-car Cravens DMU every half-hour as previously would not have coped. The honeymoon soon ended. Moorgate wasn't the best destination for most off-peak passengers despite the route having excellent interchange with the Victoria Line at Highbury & Islington. Late evening and then weekend trains reverted to Kings Cross at times when it had more capacity. Along came Thameslink. As that project grew and grew so it opened up many more journey opportunities and it has done two of the jobs it set out to do; distributing passengers around the network rather than funnelling them into one line of route and offering direct cross-London journeys with, at most, one same-platform interchange in the core. Post-Covid the Moorgate branch has remained under-used but the newest timetable seeks to address some of the imbalance of services there which had been offered at uneven 5 - 20 minute gaps. Services to both WGC and Hertford lines have been much reduced from the 1970s peak. I couldn't say whether demand led supply or vice versa. Thameslink is still perhaps trying to do too much in terms of offering "Anywhere to Everywhere" direct cross-London links. There is ample platform capacity to make a single change at Kings Cross or City and usually at Farringdon too. The core service can actually be marginally thinned which would improve reliability rather than increased. Many Thameslink trains run lightly-loaded beyond the outer London suburbs. It is wasteful to have 12-car fixed-formation trains running around mostly empty most of the time. Some of the 8-car duties are also very little-used . On the GN route Thameslink provides the faster services to outer suburbs and regional towns some of which were once served by those GN Electrics; places such as Letchworth have gained better and faster services right through London rather than a stopper to Moorgate via Hertford. A one-change option exists for many journeys via Finsbury Park. If you travel from Hornsey to Kings Cross you can change there or at Highbury; the customer has more choice. The Moorgate service is almost as moribund as it was under LT days as its Northern City Line. Essex Road is a ghost station. Even Old Street which is an interchange with the Northern Line and close to Moorfields Hospital is dreadfully quiet on the GN side. Drayton Park has never been busy. Except when a certain football team is playing at home next door. Considering the lower usage at Moorgate, I wonder if the tunnelled section could just be withdrawn with no replacement (on the basis of diverting Great Northern services through the Thameslink core)? Particularly considering Essex Road & Drayton Park see very few passengers, and the other stations have other options available. There's the Victoria line from Finsbury Park to Kings Cross, with easy interchange there for the Northern line to Old Street and Moorgate. Plus the Overground from Highbury to Shoreditch, and local buses like the 21. And if GN services were sent through the Thameslink core, Farringdon and City Thameslink provide good access to the city, or with easy interchange at Farringdon to the Circle/H&C/Met for Moorgate etc. While the Thameslink project has some advantages in terms of capacity, connections etc, I think it just doesn't quite work as an overall service, since it's basically multiple types of train service rolled into one. And as a result, the Class 700s used are a compromise to meet the different requirements. Mixed seating types (like on the 345s) might be preferrable for shorter journeys to provide more standing space - but equally the 700s lack plug sockets, tables etc which are ideal for longer journeys to Brighton/Cambridge/etc (where something like a 387 would be more suitable). In my opinion the Elizabeth Line is an example of what Thameslink should have been. Ideally Thameslink should be run by TFL, with routes swapped around so that longer distance ones divert to London terminal stations, and more metro-style ones through the core. Lots of options of which routes you could include south of the river, but to the north I would say to keep the current MML services to St Albans and Luton, then adding the stoppers to Welwyn/Hertford/etc. Maybe even the Watford Overground route, diverting via Camden Road into St Pancras? Then if the platform capacity is there, I think the Bedford services could more logically fit under the EMR Luton Express brand, and Cambridge/Peterborough services back to Kings Cross again. Introduction of longitudinal seating to the Class 700’s is a big no no for me regardless of whether they’re going long distance to Brighton or trundling around the Sutton Loop. Charging sockets should of been included from the get go and where possible, table seats too with the remaining seats gaining extra padding given they aren’t the most comfortable.
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Post by VMH2537 on Jul 21, 2024 19:35:51 GMT
Much of the Great Northern routes are a formal shadow of itself generally speaking.
The Northern branches to Welwyn and Hertford are now 2tph from what was 4tph off-peak. Hmm, I wonder whose idea was it to have such reduced frequency. *Cough *Cough. The 2tph has now made the service widely considered 'useless' with plenty of alternatives nearby from the Piccadilly and the Northern locally.
I wish not to start on how the peak service pattern operates, the Hertford Loop is overcrowded and has trains leaving at capacity. Whilst there is 6tph in the peaks, the additional 2tph only operate two journeys south between 7:30 AM and 8:30AM with the return two journeys in the PM at 17:00. The rest reduces to 4tph, Quite dangerous considering if a train is cancelled. The only dream I can have right now is to restore the pre-covid 8tph running on 5-10 minute intervals operating a 4tph additional shuttle to Gordon Hill full peak hours, but of course Government cuts led to such reduced service.
I as well barley see the additional Thameslink Sevenoaks service picking any loads unless it's to or from Finsbury Park routing towards the core. What can possibly be explained is the poorly spaced intervals with the Welwyn stopping services. On the stops between New Southgate and New Barnet, all three will arrive within a few minutes before turning to a large 18 minute gap. This is providing 6tph btw on those who thought many this service will pick up a pax who wants to flock to the western parts of the city unlike Moorgate.
The Northern City Line which once had 12tph in the peaks pre-covid doesn't feel full potential is being used from being poorly advertised and not integrated into the wider network. Perhaps it may be now time for TfL to takeover the lines providing if the DfT permits this for investment required than currently.
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Post by buspete on Jul 22, 2024 13:49:30 GMT
Okay it is desirable to have a busy train service if possible, but foremost they’re there to provide a public service - since the Elizabeth Line, Farringdon and Moorgate are important tactical destinations to access other services.
Thameslink which has never been a great service as promised, the core was designed to deliver 24tph. The Maidstone East and Orpington service has been scrapped and I still see plenty of cancellations because of train crew shortages. London Bridge should be an easy change for me tho go on to other Thameslink destinations, but this has been problematic.
Why would Kings Cross be preferable destination over Moorgate? It is easier to access the West End From Moorgate via the Elizabeth Line.
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Post by PGAT on Jul 22, 2024 14:50:17 GMT
Thameslink to Welwyn off peak is quite a big waste of mileage, which is what the DfT now thinks in. Restoring extra GN services to Moorgate is mileage better spent as there are much more end to end journeys, on a line which is painfully underserved and, as mentioned earlier, has better connectivity
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Post by wirewiper on Jul 30, 2024 18:12:53 GMT
Track replacement will close the line between Streatham Hill/Tulse Hill and Norwood Junction/Beckenham Junction from Saturday 24th August to Sunday 1st September inclusive. During this period: - There will be no trains at West Norwood and Gipsy Hill and Southern trains will not call at Birkbeck and Beckenham Junction. Trams and Souteastern services at Beckenham Junction are unaffected. - Reduced and revised Southern services at Peckham Rye, East Dulwich, North Dulwich, Tulse Hill, Norwood Junction and West Croydon. - There will be no trains (including London Overground) at Crystal Palace from Saturday 24th to Monday 26th August. From Tuesday 27th to Friday 30th August Overground trains will operate; Southern trains will also operate to London Bridge via Sydenham but will not operate towrds Streatham Hill and Victoria. www.ianvisits.co.uk/articles/rail-closures-around-crystal-palace-in-late-august-74236/
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Post by greenboy on Aug 1, 2024 5:38:22 GMT
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Post by croydonguy on Aug 1, 2024 8:41:22 GMT
That Tweet was from May but there is indeed major disruption to Mainline services to/from Brighton this morning. Coastway services are unaffected.
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Post by greenboy on Aug 1, 2024 9:28:38 GMT
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Post by gwiwer on Aug 1, 2024 11:21:13 GMT
Sounds like something developed an earth fault
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Post by gwiwer on Aug 1, 2024 11:33:44 GMT
Sounds like something developed an earth fault Almost 377402 has marginally over-run a stop block and has pushed it slightly. The unit is still on the rails. That seems like a minor mishap to have caused the closure of the Brighton main line.
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Post by greenboy on Aug 6, 2024 7:25:19 GMT
No service between Tulse Hill and London Bridge whilst emergency services deal with an incident.
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Post by PGAT on Aug 11, 2024 12:27:05 GMT
Thameslink trains stopping at Selhurst today on top of the fast services from Victoria. First time I’ve seen that
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Post by someone on Aug 13, 2024 11:04:26 GMT
I was coming home from holiday from Luton airport on the 10th, when the next train was cut short to Blackfriars, so that meant I had to wait 18 mins to go one stop further to London Bridge!
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