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Post by LD71YLO (BE37054) on Feb 23, 2022 21:18:39 GMT
It would be an incredibly silly decision to mess with the 37 corridor especially given the 37 relies on other routes to assist it given its far and away the busiest & and most used on the corridor. I thought you would pop up when I mentioned the 37 😂 My admittedly not totally local opinion has the 337 as more vulnerable than the 37 - in TfL’s current merger mania that route I can easily see either being fused with another or chopped up and fed to various other routes. As a local yes I would agree there. 337 parallels the SWR a lot and looks to me to be in for the kill, alongside the 378. I also see the 209/419/533 and N33/N72 fiddled about with. |
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Post by YX10FFN on Feb 23, 2022 21:26:29 GMT
I thought you would pop up when I mentioned the 37 😂 My admittedly not totally local opinion has the 337 as more vulnerable than the 37 - in TfL’s current merger mania that route I can easily see either being fused with another or chopped up and fed to various other routes. As a local yes I would agree there. 337 parallels the SWR a lot and looks to me to be in for the kill, alongside the 378. I also see the 209/419/533 and N33/N72 fiddled about with. I'm surprised that as a local you'd nominate the 337 for the chop- feel like I repeat myself a lot regarding this subject but just because SWR runs there doesn't mean there's no demand for buses. SWR is both unreliable and expensive, resultantly you see heavy loads on westbound 337s from Putney, that link with East Sheen is well used especially at peaks. For a journey from East Sheen to Putney it would make far more sense to get the 337 than walk up to Mortlake and pay double just for a 2tph train service. |
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Post by YX10FFN on Feb 23, 2022 21:31:12 GMT
Arguably the Barnes/Mortlake area needs to reflect 2 things now. Firstly that Hammersmith Bridge is likely to remain open now to pedestrians and secondly its unlikely to open to buses anytime soon. The need for to capacity to Putney clearly isn't so needed due to people happy to walk over the bridge. I'd look at the 485 being every 15 mins, extended into the Riverside development but diverted to Mortlake. Discontinue the 378. I'd take the 209 to every 12 mins to Castlenau and the 419 as it now every 12 mins down to Roehampton. 33 leave as it is. This is one area which is very overbussed - personally, I'd merge the 209, 378 (minus the Putney Bridge link) & 485 together into one route with a 15 minute frequency across the board. Would run from Wandsworth via the Riverside development rather than terminate there, via the 378 to Avondale Road and then 209 up to Barnes, Red Lion, do the 485 double run via Wetlands and then along Castelnau to Hammersmith Bridge. Starting from the riverside development decreases journey times for Putney bound journeys and merging the 209 & 378 together removes standing buses from Avondale Road which do end up blocking each other because there isn't enough room for both routes. Slightly confused by this proposal. Are you proposing running via the 378 on Station Road, doing a double run to Mortlake then running back to Barnes and up to Castelnau? |
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Post by southlondon413 on Feb 23, 2022 21:34:15 GMT
I thought you would pop up when I mentioned the 37 😂 My admittedly not totally local opinion has the 337 as more vulnerable than the 37 - in TfL’s current merger mania that route I can easily see either being fused with another or chopped up and fed to various other routes. As a local yes I would agree there. 337 parallels the SWR a lot and looks to me to be in for the kill, alongside the 378. I also see the 209/419/533 and N33/N72 fiddled about with. That really means nothing though, the 86 parallels most of the rail line on its route, the 155 parallels the Northern Line all the way from Tooting to E&C but neither should be suggested for withdrawal. There needs to be parallel bus routes to rail lines to serve those intermediary communities who pick up bus routes to get to stations to continue their journeys. That couldn’t happen if those routes didn’t exist. The most I could see happening with the 337 is perhaps a cutback to Wandsworth to reduce the amount of routes going from Wandsworth to Clapham as that does seem overbussed but I wouldn’t expect anything in the Putney to Richmond end. Merging the 37 with the 337 would make it way too long and it would suffer massively from some very heavy traffic hot spots. I just don’t see it being workable or reliable. We don’t need to see super routes in the suburbs where there is less opportunities to take rail or tube routes. We need more reliable alternatives and not routes that never reach your destination because the traffic is too heavy. |
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Post by southlondonbus on Feb 23, 2022 21:34:38 GMT
As a local yes I would agree there. 337 parallels the SWR a lot and looks to me to be in for the kill, alongside the 378. I also see the 209/419/533 and N33/N72 fiddled about with. I'm surprised that as a local you'd nominate the 337 for the chop- feel like I repeat myself a lot regarding this subject but just because SWR runs there doesn't mean there's no demand for buses. SWR is both unreliable and expensive, resultantly you see heavy loads on westbound 337s from Putney, that link with East Sheen is well used especially at peaks. For a journey from East Sheen to Putney it would make far more sense to get the 337 than walk up to Mortlake and pay double just for a 2tph train service. Technically it's 4tph on that section (normally 2 via Kingston and 2 via Hounslow and back into Waterloo) but I still think there is demand for the 337. The only possibility I guess could be the 337 diverted at Putney Station to either the Heath or Bridge and the CJ section left to the 37 If it's felt two routes are not needed anymore. |
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Post by YX10FFN on Feb 23, 2022 21:40:41 GMT
I'm surprised that as a local you'd nominate the 337 for the chop- feel like I repeat myself a lot regarding this subject but just because SWR runs there doesn't mean there's no demand for buses. SWR is both unreliable and expensive, resultantly you see heavy loads on westbound 337s from Putney, that link with East Sheen is well used especially at peaks. For a journey from East Sheen to Putney it would make far more sense to get the 337 than walk up to Mortlake and pay double just for a 2tph train service. Technically it's 4tph on that section (normally 2 via Kingston and 2 via Hounslow and back into Waterloo) but I still think there is demand for the 337. The only possibility I guess could be the 337 diverted at Putney Station to either the Heath or Bridge and the CJ section left to the 37 If it's felt two routes are not needed anymore. I'm pretty sure the Hounslow loop operates during peaks only. So for most of the day its 2ph. From all my observations I don't think Putney-Clapham Junction is overbussed and the 37 would struggle if left alone. |
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Post by vjaska on Feb 23, 2022 22:44:45 GMT
This is one area which is very overbussed - personally, I'd merge the 209, 378 (minus the Putney Bridge link) & 485 together into one route with a 15 minute frequency across the board. Would run from Wandsworth via the Riverside development rather than terminate there, via the 378 to Avondale Road and then 209 up to Barnes, Red Lion, do the 485 double run via Wetlands and then along Castelnau to Hammersmith Bridge. Starting from the riverside development decreases journey times for Putney bound journeys and merging the 209 & 378 together removes standing buses from Avondale Road which do end up blocking each other because there isn't enough room for both routes. Slightly confused by this proposal. Are you proposing running via the 378 on Station Road, doing a double run to Mortlake then running back to Barnes and up to Castelnau? So the merged 209/378/485 would follow the 378 from Putney Pier to Avondale Road, then follow the 209 to Red Lion & then follow the 485 via Wetlands and then up Castelnau to Hammersmith Bridge |
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Post by YX10FFN on Feb 23, 2022 23:11:06 GMT
Slightly confused by this proposal. Are you proposing running via the 378 on Station Road, doing a double run to Mortlake then running back to Barnes and up to Castelnau? So the merged 209/378/485 would follow the 378 from Putney Pier to Avondale Road, then follow the 209 to Red Lion & then follow the 485 via Wetlands and then up Castelnau to Hammersmith Bridge Yes that would involve a double run between Barnes Pond and Mortlake, which wouldn't be too efficient in my view. |
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Post by LD71YLO (BE37054) on Feb 24, 2022 18:21:54 GMT
As a local yes I would agree there. 337 parallels the SWR a lot and looks to me to be in for the kill, alongside the 378. I also see the 209/419/533 and N33/N72 fiddled about with. I'm surprised that as a local you'd nominate the 337 for the chop- feel like I repeat myself a lot regarding this subject but just because SWR runs there doesn't mean there's no demand for buses. SWR is both unreliable and expensive, resultantly you see heavy loads on westbound 337s from Putney, that link with East Sheen is well used especially at peaks. For a journey from East Sheen to Putney it would make far more sense to get the 337 than walk up to Mortlake and pay double just for a 2tph train service. I do hope it doesn't go - just think that it looks to me to be a place for TfL to make savings. I mean involving other routes being diverted to cover it - not withdrawn without replacement. IMO it's a route of two halves with few cross-Putney journeys. |
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Post by abellion on Feb 24, 2022 19:29:43 GMT
I'm surprised that as a local you'd nominate the 337 for the chop- feel like I repeat myself a lot regarding this subject but just because SWR runs there doesn't mean there's no demand for buses. SWR is both unreliable and expensive, resultantly you see heavy loads on westbound 337s from Putney, that link with East Sheen is well used especially at peaks. For a journey from East Sheen to Putney it would make far more sense to get the 337 than walk up to Mortlake and pay double just for a 2tph train service. I do hope it doesn't go - just think that it looks to me to be a place for TfL to make savings. I mean involving other routes being diverted to cover it - not withdrawn without replacement. IMO it's a route of two halves with few cross-Putney journeys. Perhaps if the 37 got an increased frequency. It gets very crowded, the 39 is indirect and the 170 is single deck and avoids most of Putney, 337 is really the only good support for it. |
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Post by ADH45258 on Feb 26, 2022 1:21:08 GMT
I expect any further TFL changes in the area would mostly be to reduce the number of routes around Barnes, rather than further changes involving the 337 etc.
Not sure if the 378 link is still needed - having mostly been introduced as an alternative link to the District line from Mortlake & Barnes Bridge. Many passengers will prefer to walk over Hammersmith Bridge since it has reopened to pedestrians, while other options include the 533 to Hammersmith via Chiswick Bridge, the 337 from Upper Richmond Road to East Putney Station, or taking the train directly from SWR stations. The 485's proposed frequency increase also covers some of this capacity, maintaining links as far as Barnes Pond - and if rerouted as planned, would still connect to the District Line, but at East Putney instead.
The 209 & 533 could also possibly be merged to reduce excess capacity between Castelnau and Mortlake - with the combined route serving Church Road in both directions (rather than Lonsdale Road), and with a double run to Avondale Road.
Could even consider further merging all of the 209/378/485/533 together to operate a new route between Hammersmith and Wandsworth - via Chiswick Bridge, Mortlake, Barnes Bridge, Castelnau, Barnes Pond and Putney. This would maintain the 378's links if needed (though less directly), and reduce the number of routes terminating at Castelnau to just the 33.
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Post by ianhardy on Feb 26, 2022 10:07:03 GMT
Technically it's 4tph on that section (normally 2 via Kingston and 2 via Hounslow and back into Waterloo) but I still think there is demand for the 337. The only possibility I guess could be the 337 diverted at Putney Station to either the Heath or Bridge and the CJ section left to the 37 If it's felt two routes are not needed anymore. I'm pretty sure the Hounslow loop operates during peaks only. So for most of the day its 2ph. From all my observations I don't think Putney-Clapham Junction is overbussed and the 37 would struggle if left alone. Since COVID the Hounslow only operates at peak hours. As DfT has told all TOCs to reduce costs, I don't see them coming back especially as SWR's proposed Dec 2022 timetable changes, the full loop service become permanently peak hours only, with the off peak Hounslow Loop services only running between Twickenham & Waterloo via Brentford, so St Margarets, North Sheen and Mortlake will only have 2tph. Therefore the 337 does not need a reduction.
The problem with the way that TfL looks at corridors for usage is that nearer a large traffic centre there are lots of routes going along the same roads, e.g. between Wandsworth and Clapham Junction, however west of Wandsworth the routes spread out like the Prince of Wales feathers. Each of those routes needs it's frequency on its lone section, but when they are all together east of Wandsworth, that section may seem to have too many buses. Unfortunately that is the result of lots of people wanting to go to Clapham Junction. The problem then comes, is which of the routes west of Wandsworth gets the section east of Wandsworth cut, so those people are forced to change and will probably decide not to travel by bus because of the enforced change.
I doubt that if this section of route was in any other city apart from London, the operators wouldn't be considering doing things like this as they understand whole journeys and that people don't like to change, rather than local authorities which only look at spreadsheets of usage figures and think there are too many buses in that section, but their spreadsheets don't tell them why:-)
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Post by evergreenadam on Feb 26, 2022 10:44:49 GMT
I'm pretty sure the Hounslow loop operates during peaks only. So for most of the day its 2ph. From all my observations I don't think Putney-Clapham Junction is overbussed and the 37 would struggle if left alone. Since COVID the Hounslow only operates at peak hours. As DfT has told all TOCs to reduce costs, I don't see them coming back especially as SWR's proposed Dec 2022 timetable changes, the full loop service become permanently peak hours only, with the off peak Hounslow Loop services only running between Twickenham & Waterloo via Brentford, so St Margarets, North Sheen and Mortlake will only have 2tph. Therefore the 337 does not need a reduction.
The problem with the way that TfL looks at corridors for usage is that nearer a large traffic centre there are lots of routes going along the same roads, e.g. between Wandsworth and Clapham Junction, however west of Wandsworth the routes spread out like the Prince of Wales feathers. Each of those routes needs it's frequency on its lone section, but when they are all together east of Wandsworth, that section may seem to have too many buses. Unfortunately that is the result of lots of people wanting to go to Clapham Junction. The problem then comes, is which of the routes west of Wandsworth gets the section east of Wandsworth cut, so those people are forced to change and will probably decide not to travel by bus because of the enforced change.
I doubt that if this section of route was in any other city apart from London, the operators wouldn't be considering doing things like this as they understand whole journeys and that people don't like to change, rather than local authorities which only look at spreadsheets of usage figures and think there are too many buses in that section, but their spreadsheets don't tell them why:-)
Well said. |
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Post by vjaska on Feb 26, 2022 14:20:48 GMT
I expect any further TFL changes in the area would mostly be to reduce the number of routes around Barnes, rather than further changes involving the 337 etc. Not sure if the 378 link is still needed - having mostly been introduced as an alternative link to the District line from Mortlake & Barnes Bridge. Many passengers will prefer to walk over Hammersmith Bridge since it has reopened to pedestrians, while other options include the 533 to Hammersmith via Chiswick Bridge, the 337 from Upper Richmond Road to East Putney Station, or taking the train directly from SWR stations. The 485's proposed frequency increase also covers some of this capacity, maintaining links as far as Barnes Pond - and if rerouted as planned, would still connect to the District Line, but at East Putney instead. The 209 & 533 could also possibly be merged to reduce excess capacity between Castelnau and Mortlake - with the combined route serving Church Road in both directions (rather than Lonsdale Road), and with a double run to Avondale Road. Could even consider further merging all of the 209/378/485/533 together to operate a new route between Hammersmith and Wandsworth - via Chiswick Bridge, Mortlake, Barnes Bridge, Castelnau, Barnes Pond and Putney. This would maintain the 378's links if needed (though less directly), and reduce the number of routes terminating at Castelnau to just the 33. The problem the 533 has it gets affected by congestion quite heavily at times unlike the other three routes. For me, it’s better to leave it as it is and merge the other three routes together who can cope in that form. Having the 33, 209/378/485 merged & 533 seems reasonable rather than just one |
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Post by evergreenadam on Feb 26, 2022 16:20:07 GMT
I expect any further TFL changes in the area would mostly be to reduce the number of routes around Barnes, rather than further changes involving the 337 etc. Not sure if the 378 link is still needed - having mostly been introduced as an alternative link to the District line from Mortlake & Barnes Bridge. Many passengers will prefer to walk over Hammersmith Bridge since it has reopened to pedestrians, while other options include the 533 to Hammersmith via Chiswick Bridge, the 337 from Upper Richmond Road to East Putney Station, or taking the train directly from SWR stations. The 485's proposed frequency increase also covers some of this capacity, maintaining links as far as Barnes Pond - and if rerouted as planned, would still connect to the District Line, but at East Putney instead. The 209 & 533 could also possibly be merged to reduce excess capacity between Castelnau and Mortlake - with the combined route serving Church Road in both directions (rather than Lonsdale Road), and with a double run to Avondale Road. Could even consider further merging all of the 209/378/485/533 together to operate a new route between Hammersmith and Wandsworth - via Chiswick Bridge, Mortlake, Barnes Bridge, Castelnau, Barnes Pond and Putney. This would maintain the 378's links if needed (though less directly), and reduce the number of routes terminating at Castelnau to just the 33. The problem the 533 has it gets affected by congestion quite heavily at times unlike the other three routes. For me, it’s better to leave it as it is and merge the other three routes together who can cope in that form. Having the 33, 209/378/485 merged & 533 seems reasonable rather than just one Extending the 272 from Grove Park to Mortlake/Barnes would create a useful link to the centre of Chiswick and improve cross river links. |
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