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Post by Deleted on Oct 31, 2019 11:01:48 GMT
I am strong Tory voter and I couldn’t be persuaded elsewhere. Corbyn is more fish than man at this point with the amount of flopping he’s done and the Lib Dems are beyond a joke. An election is the worst possible solution but the only way through this mess. If the Lib Dems do win and revoke article 50 say goodbye to sterling as we will probably be forced to switch to the euro which would only lead to economic instability long term. Remember if Greece needs a bailout the whole eurozone is devalued and outside of the EU we are protected from that. Unbelievable that after 3 years people still don’t know the facts: 1. If we remain in the EU our terms of membership are unchanged. We remain outside the Eurozone and keep the pound. That protects us to some extent from a devalued Euro. Non Eurozone countries also get additional benefits. See point 2. 2. The UK didn’t contribute to the EU bailout of Greece. In 2011 non-eurozone countries gained a guarantee written into law that the we would be exempt from any future liability from EU bailouts. In addition if the EU tries to fund any bailout from the central budget, the UK receives a refund for our portion of the bailout. 3. The UK contributes to international bailouts via the IMF. So for Greece we lent on our own terms through the IMF at a very high interest rate. Due to the IMF’s high rates, their loans usually get paid back first and results in revenue for lending countries. If you are backing leaving the EU, at least base it on facts and not canteen gossip! I am well aware of these points. My argument is that if the Lib Dems won the election and revoked article 50 our membership with the EU would be drastically changed. Do you honestly believe that the EU will allow us to just revoke article 50 without any penalties, absolutely not. We are opening ourselves up to the Euro, increased migration, all manner of things that the UK opted out of but would more than likely have to accept. I voted for Brexit because I believe the EU wields too much power over Europe and spends too much time imposing laws over our sovereignty. The EU is a democracy not an autocracy and it’s time to cut them down to size. |
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Post by snowman on Oct 31, 2019 11:29:33 GMT
Unbelievable that after 3 years people still don’t know the facts: 1. If we remain in the EU our terms of membership are unchanged. We remain outside the Eurozone and keep the pound. That protects us to some extent from a devalued Euro. Non Eurozone countries also get additional benefits. See point 2. 2. The UK didn’t contribute to the EU bailout of Greece. In 2011 non-eurozone countries gained a guarantee written into law that the we would be exempt from any future liability from EU bailouts. In addition if the EU tries to fund any bailout from the central budget, the UK receives a refund for our portion of the bailout. 3. The UK contributes to international bailouts via the IMF. So for Greece we lent on our own terms through the IMF at a very high interest rate. Due to the IMF’s high rates, their loans usually get paid back first and results in revenue for lending countries. If you are backing leaving the EU, at least base it on facts and not canteen gossip! I am well aware of these points. My argument is that if the Lib Dems won the election and revoked article 50 our membership with the EU would be drastically changed. Do you honestly believe that the EU will allow us to just revoke article 50 without any penalties, absolutely not. We are opening ourselves up to the Euro, increased migration, all manner of things that the UK opted out of but would more than likely have to accept. I voted for Brexit because I believe the EU wields too much power over Europe and spends too much time imposing laws over our sovereignty. The EU is a democracy not an autocracy and it’s time to cut them down to size. Personally, I think the Lib Dems will revoke article 50 and hope Brexit debate will all go quiet over time, after wasting 3 years Parliament needs to get on with other things. Probably be more pressure not to change things to avoid Scottish Independence etc. EU will be tired of UK's antics through the Brexit process, but they are not stupid enough to rock the boat and demand changes for a few years, everyone knows it needs time to calm down, otherwise just going to reignite the Brexit debate. Longer term more changes may happen, but will be off agenda for few years. |
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Post by busman on Oct 31, 2019 14:02:04 GMT
Unbelievable that after 3 years people still don’t know the facts: 1. If we remain in the EU our terms of membership are unchanged. We remain outside the Eurozone and keep the pound. That protects us to some extent from a devalued Euro. Non Eurozone countries also get additional benefits. See point 2. 2. The UK didn’t contribute to the EU bailout of Greece. In 2011 non-eurozone countries gained a guarantee written into law that the we would be exempt from any future liability from EU bailouts. In addition if the EU tries to fund any bailout from the central budget, the UK receives a refund for our portion of the bailout. 3. The UK contributes to international bailouts via the IMF. So for Greece we lent on our own terms through the IMF at a very high interest rate. Due to the IMF’s high rates, their loans usually get paid back first and results in revenue for lending countries. If you are backing leaving the EU, at least base it on facts and not canteen gossip! I am well aware of these points. My argument is that if the Lib Dems won the election and revoked article 50 our membership with the EU would be drastically changed. Do you honestly believe that the EU will allow us to just revoke article 50 without any penalties, absolutely not. We are opening ourselves up to the Euro, increased migration, all manner of things that the UK opted out of but would more than likely have to accept. I voted for Brexit because I believe the EU wields too much power over Europe and spends too much time imposing laws over our sovereignty. The EU is a democracy not an autocracy and it’s time to cut them down to size. In the words of our PM, I say to you ”DUDE!”. You are clearly not well aware of those points. Revoking article 50 results in us defaulting back to our previous terms of membership. Confirmed in law, clarified by the European Court of Justice. No Euro, no Schengen, we keep our rebates. That is indisputable fact. Wanting Brexit because you feel the EU wields too much power over us is a very different matter - and is a far more defensible position to hold. |
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Post by vjaska on Oct 31, 2019 14:10:41 GMT
I am well aware of these points. My argument is that if the Lib Dems won the election and revoked article 50 our membership with the EU would be drastically changed. Do you honestly believe that the EU will allow us to just revoke article 50 without any penalties, absolutely not. We are opening ourselves up to the Euro, increased migration, all manner of things that the UK opted out of but would more than likely have to accept. I voted for Brexit because I believe the EU wields too much power over Europe and spends too much time imposing laws over our sovereignty. The EU is a democracy not an autocracy and it’s time to cut them down to size. In the words of our PM, I say to you ”DUDE!”. You are clearly not well aware of those points. Revoking article 50 results in us defaulting back to our previous terms of membership. Confirmed in law, clarified by the European Court of Justice. No Euro, no Schengen, we keep our rebates. That is indisputable fact. Wanting Brexit because you feel the EU wields too much power over us is a very different matter - and is a far more defensible position to hold. TBF, after the whole shambolic negotiating process between this country & the EU, is it any wonder why people are so sceptical. |
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Post by rif153 on Oct 31, 2019 22:34:33 GMT
I am well aware of these points. My argument is that if the Lib Dems won the election and revoked article 50 our membership with the EU would be drastically changed. Do you honestly believe that the EU will allow us to just revoke article 50 without any penalties, absolutely not. We are opening ourselves up to the Euro, increased migration, all manner of things that the UK opted out of but would more than likely have to accept. I voted for Brexit because I believe the EU wields too much power over Europe and spends too much time imposing laws over our sovereignty. The EU is a democracy not an autocracy and it’s time to cut them down to size. In the words of our PM, I say to you ”DUDE!”. You are clearly not well aware of those points. Revoking article 50 results in us defaulting back to our previous terms of membership. Confirmed in law, clarified by the European Court of Justice. No Euro, no Schengen, we keep our rebates. That is indisputable fact. Wanting Brexit because you feel the EU wields too much power over us is a very different matter - and is a far more defensible position to hold. The Lib Dems are like Extinction Rebellion, liberal elite who think they know what's best. I fail to see how revoking article 50 can be justified. There is widespread discotent we haven't left yet across the country, so I don't see how revocation can help heal divisions. People are very polarised at the moment, and despite being a centrist party on paper, the Lib Dems have become an extreme party who are only for the 48%. Its student politics, pandering to the minority, and its pathetic that they pedal such idealistic nonsense. Then there's the unbearable Jo Swinson, who makes me feel tempted to start throwing things at my TV screen, ludicrous suggesting she is a candidate to be prime minister. It would serve them right if they only made a small number of gains at the next election. I wish they would lose all their seats and go away, but sadly all the middle class remonaer ideologues in Ealing seem to love to the idea of voting Lib Dem, and seem to think it will all be ok if we revoke A50 and think it will be sunny everyday once Brexit is scrapped. |
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Post by capitalomnibus on Nov 1, 2019 18:05:29 GMT
Yawn yawn yawn. Pure bulls**t  Didn't think fluffy cats could lay bullshit, guess I learn something new every day. |
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Post by MetrolineGA1511 on Nov 2, 2019 20:19:17 GMT
O dear it drags on! Now we have a General Election on the 12th December! Funny this is now the second time a Prime Minister has decided they didn't like what the public said and have decided to have another vote. Listen to the public regarding the referendum result but not regarding the 2015 or 2017 election results  I think the Conservatives would prefer to lose office than lose Brexit. They do not want to risk a People's Vote yielding a Remain result. |
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Post by MetrolineGA1511 on Nov 2, 2019 20:21:07 GMT
But parliament’s in a stalemate, the only way around it is to bring in new people. It’s almost a guarantee that there will be new MPs for some areas who can hopefully solve this deadlock. The General Election will almost certainly deliver another hung parliament. I think the Conservatives will win the most seats, but it would be an incredible performance if they emerge with an outright majority. For people like me, voting will be a nightmare. I agree with many Tory policies, won’t vote for Corbyn, disagree with many lilly-livered Lib Dem policies....but I fiercely believe we should remain in the EU. Just like a Southampton fan against Leicester, I’ll be left shaking my head after the cross goes into box. Depending on your constituency, maybe you should borrow one of Polly Toynbee's nosepegs and vote Labour. Corbyn would still stand down within a few years anyway. |
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Post by busman on Nov 2, 2019 21:54:38 GMT
The General Election will almost certainly deliver another hung parliament. I think the Conservatives will win the most seats, but it would be an incredible performance if they emerge with an outright majority. For people like me, voting will be a nightmare. I agree with many Tory policies, won’t vote for Corbyn, disagree with many lilly-livered Lib Dem policies....but I fiercely believe we should remain in the EU. Just like a Southampton fan against Leicester, I’ll be left shaking my head after the cross goes into box. Depending on your constituency, maybe you should borrow one of Polly Toynbee's nosepegs and vote Labour. Corbyn would still stand down within a few years anyway. I can’t vote for Labour. Not with Corbyn in charge. I’ll definitely take the nose pegs but as an extreme Remainer will probably end up voting Lib Dems. I feel dirty for even saying that. Ugh. |
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Post by rif153 on Nov 3, 2019 9:43:18 GMT
Depending on your constituency, maybe you should borrow one of Polly Toynbee's nosepegs and vote Labour. Corbyn would still stand down within a few years anyway. I can’t vote for Labour. Not with Corbyn in charge. I’ll definitely take the nose pegs but as an extreme Remainer will probably end up voting Lib Dems. I feel dirty for even saying that. Ugh. So do you support a people’s vote or revoking article 50? |
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Post by busman on Nov 3, 2019 14:16:17 GMT
I can’t vote for Labour. Not with Corbyn in charge. I’ll definitely take the nose pegs but as an extreme Remainer will probably end up voting Lib Dems. I feel dirty for even saying that. Ugh. So do you support a people’s vote or revoking article 50? I support remaining in the EU. Lib Dems and Greens are the only parties holding that position. Lib Dems have the least extreme policies of the two. |
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Post by rif153 on Nov 3, 2019 14:23:22 GMT
So do you support a people’s vote or revoking article 50? I support remaining in the EU. Lib Dems and Greens are the only parties holding that position. Lib Dems have the least extreme policies of the two. I voted to Remain, and I would again tomorrow.
However, I fail to see how revoking A50 is the right option.The 2016 referrendum was had one of the highest turnouts of any democratic exercise in British history. The fact is that 17.4 million people voted to leave the EU. Many of these people are discontented we haven't left yet, putting aside why they voted Brexit, revocation of A50 does nothing to solve this. Our country is already divided, and polarised. How is revoking Article 50, ignoring the will of 17.4 million people, and ignoring a huge democratic excercise going to heal divisions? The Lib Dems are just throwing their toys out of the pram because they can't accept the fact they lost the referrendum, putting aside the idealistic nonsense of the policy the've constructed which had made them an extreme paty who are only pandering to the remainers. At least if you had another referrendum, then you could use that to re-evaulate the situation, but this idea that everything will be fine if article 50 is revoked is bile.
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Post by snowman on Nov 3, 2019 15:28:28 GMT
I support remaining in the EU. Lib Dems and Greens are the only parties holding that position. Lib Dems have the least extreme policies of the two. I voted to Remain, and I would again tomorrow. However, I fail to see how revoking A50 is the right option.The 2016 referrendum was had one of the highest turnouts of any democratic exercise in British history. The fact is that 17.4 million people voted to leave the EU. Many of these people are discontented we haven't left yet, putting aside why they voted Brexit, revocation of A50 does nothing to solve this. Our country is already divided, and polarised. How is revoking Article 50, ignoring the will of 17.4 million people, and ignoring a huge democratic excercise going to heal divisions? The Lib Dems are just throwing their toys out of the pram because they can't accept the fact they lost the referrendum, putting aside the idealistic nonsense of the policy the've constructed which had made them an extreme paty who are only pandering to the remainers. At least if you had another referrendum, then you could use that to re-evaulate the situation, but this idea that everything will be fine if article 50 is revoked is bile.
I know a general election is not a district replacement for a new referendum, but things have changed. At its very simplest Boris deal is long way from what the leave campaign promised, all sorts of details are different. For something with a result of only 3-4% difference, cannot be any statistical confidence that had the correct facts been presented, result might have varied. Additionally the electorate has changed, about 2.5m were excluded as too young, but have since become 18 before implementation date. Also about 2.5m have died. So electorate has changed by about triple the winning margin. Therefore the referendum is out of date. Whatever happens some people won’t be happy. I have no idea what the result will be, but I could easily see 50-100 seats going tactical (where one or more parties stand aside to give common opposition to sitting party). Probably discover lot more in week or two. Of the 2 big parties, Conservatives have a marmite leader, some love him, some hate him. Labour is likely to be punished for dithering and a weak leader. That leaves most others with Lib Dems, Greens, the Brexit/Farage route, or a Celtic local party (last one not really applicable to London). The one thing about an Article 50 is business can start moving forward again, and all the other items such as moving home can restart as uncertainty about rules going forward is lifted. Brexit deals could have taken years to get with some countries, and all the hanging around being uncertain when and if a deal might happen is frustrating for everyone and a big negative to any form of investment spending. |
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Post by busman on Nov 3, 2019 18:17:39 GMT
I support remaining in the EU. Lib Dems and Greens are the only parties holding that position. Lib Dems have the least extreme policies of the two. I voted to Remain, and I would again tomorrow.
However, I fail to see how revoking A50 is the right option.The 2016 referrendum was had one of the highest turnouts of any democratic exercise in British history. The fact is that 17.4 million people voted to leave the EU. Many of these people are discontented we haven't left yet, putting aside why they voted Brexit, revocation of A50 does nothing to solve this. Our country is already divided, and polarised. How is revoking Article 50, ignoring the will of 17.4 million people, and ignoring a huge democratic excercise going to heal divisions? The Lib Dems are just throwing their toys out of the pram because they can't accept the fact they lost the referrendum, putting aside the idealistic nonsense of the policy the've constructed which had made them an extreme paty who are only pandering to the remainers. At least if you had another referrendum, then you could use that to re-evaulate the situation, but this idea that everything will be fine if article 50 is revoked is bile.
Like I said, I’m an extreme remainer. For me, the end justifies the means. Revoke Article 50, 2nd referendum, leaving with a deal, leaving without a deal.....whatever option one chooses will be painful and will leave a portion of the public unhappy. My role as a voter is to vote for a party that best represents my view on the issues I care most deeply about. It’s not my role to vote in a way that considers the opinions of those who think differently to me ahead of my own. When those 17.4 million voted to leave the EU did they think about the economic and personal consequences of those who would suffer as a result of leaving? Of course they didn’t and rightly not. The beauty of this election is that there are parties representing a broad range of options on Brexit among other things. If a friend wants to honour the referendum result, I would wholeheartedly back their decision to vote Tory or Brexit Party. It doesn’t make them evil for having a different perspective on what’s best for the country. I have leave voting friends who will be voting Tory and at the end of the day we agree to disagree. Vote for whoever best represents your point of view and don’t let anyone persuade you otherwise. |
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Post by vjaska on Nov 3, 2019 18:44:57 GMT
I voted to Remain, and I would again tomorrow. However, I fail to see how revoking A50 is the right option.The 2016 referrendum was had one of the highest turnouts of any democratic exercise in British history. The fact is that 17.4 million people voted to leave the EU. Many of these people are discontented we haven't left yet, putting aside why they voted Brexit, revocation of A50 does nothing to solve this. Our country is already divided, and polarised. How is revoking Article 50, ignoring the will of 17.4 million people, and ignoring a huge democratic excercise going to heal divisions? The Lib Dems are just throwing their toys out of the pram because they can't accept the fact they lost the referrendum, putting aside the idealistic nonsense of the policy the've constructed which had made them an extreme paty who are only pandering to the remainers. At least if you had another referrendum, then you could use that to re-evaulate the situation, but this idea that everything will be fine if article 50 is revoked is bile.
Like I said, I’m an extreme remainer. For me, the end justifies the means. Revoke Article 50, 2nd referendum, leaving with a deal, leaving without a deal.....whatever option one chooses will be painful and will leave a portion of the public unhappy. My role as a voter is to vote for a party that best represents my view on the issues I care most deeply about. It’s not my role to vote in a way that considers the opinions of those who think differently to me ahead of my own. When those 17.4 million voted to leave the EU did they think about the economic and personal consequences of those who would suffer as a result of leaving? Of course they didn’t and rightly not. The beauty of this election is that there are parties representing a broad range of options on Brexit among other things. If a friend wants to honour the referendum result, I would wholeheartedly back their decision to vote Tory or Brexit Party. It doesn’t make them evil for having a different perspective on what’s best for the country. I have leave voting friends who will be voting Tory and at the end of the day we agree to disagree. Vote for whoever best represents your point of view and don’t let anyone persuade you otherwise. We should not have a 2nd referendum because then there is no point in having referendums as we’ll simply keep having one until a certain amount of people are happy and that isn’t how it works. This is partly why the Scottish where dismayed at the SNP for wanting another one on the union simply because they lost the first one. |
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