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Post by ThinLizzy on Feb 16, 2017 20:07:40 GMT
Sad to see National Express leaving a line that has operated wonderfully over the past few years. I wish Trenitalia luck with operating their first franchise and hopefully they can live up to, or even beyond the standard National Express have set. Well did look odd seeing the trains pull in at Upminster and West Ham on Tuesday with just c2c on them again. Have to say they did a very good job on the route. A few issues I had personally but don't think it was their problem, more lazy sods that didn't want to use the District Line!! I get on at Barking but at least I go more that one stop 👍 |
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Post by john on Feb 16, 2017 20:08:58 GMT
Well did look odd seeing the trains pull in at Upminster and West Ham on Tuesday with just c2c on them again. Have to say they did a very good job on the route. A few issues I had personally but don't think it was their problem, more lazy sods that didn't want to use the District Line!! I get on at Barking but at least I go more that one stop 👍 Majority of the time I do Upminster to West Ham, but i do wonder why c2c have never done alternate stopping at Barking. If it stops at West Ham, it doesn't stop at Barking etc |
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Post by Eastlondoner62 on Feb 16, 2017 20:46:13 GMT
I get on at Barking but at least I go more that one stop 👍 Majority of the time I do Upminster to West Ham, but i do wonder why c2c have never done alternate stopping at Barking. If it stops at West Ham, it doesn't stop at Barking etc As the people who do West Ham - Barking are also c2c's passengers and they need to be catered for, I'd imagine the last thing the TOC wants is to lose a huge amount of passengers intentionally. |
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Post by john on Feb 16, 2017 23:01:53 GMT
Majority of the time I do Upminster to West Ham, but i do wonder why c2c have never done alternate stopping at Barking. If it stops at West Ham, it doesn't stop at Barking etc As the people who do West Ham - Barking are also c2c's passengers and they need to be catered for, I'd imagine the last thing the TOC wants is to lose a huge amount of passengers intentionally. No but let's be fair, their "priority" for rush hour should be those that live past the Travelcard area, so beyond Upminster and Rainham really. GEML had similar operations when during rush hour only the Metro services served Romford, in between peaks 2 fast services stopped, one Southend and 1 Colchester service. So feasible to do, just down to timetabling really considering you have LUL services alongside. |
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Post by snoggle on Feb 16, 2017 23:29:51 GMT
As the people who do West Ham - Barking are also c2c's passengers and they need to be catered for, I'd imagine the last thing the TOC wants is to lose a huge amount of passengers intentionally. No but let's be fair, their "priority" for rush hour should be those that live past the Travelcard area, so beyond Upminster and Rainham really. GEML had similar operations when during rush hour only the Metro services served Romford, in between peaks 2 fast services stopped, one Southend and 1 Colchester service. So feasible to do, just down to timetabling really considering you have LUL services alongside. Sorry but you're missing the point as to what has happened with the C2C corridor. All the people who commute from Essex think the line is theirs and people in "that London" can get stuffed. Well unfortunately things have changed. There is more development in East London, more people have moved further out to Zones 4-6 because of house price issues, C2C themselves built the platforms at West Ham to give interchange to the Jubilee Line for access to Docklands. We now have Stratford developing as a large employment centre. This means that C2C's passenger market and the nature of trips it carries has changed radically since the 1980s. The Essex commuters probably still think the service should run as in the 1980s but at modern performance levels. They have to get used to the fact that people in Greater London have as much right to use C2C as anyone else. The government specified a Metro style service on the route and the whingebags of Essex revolted about that. Things are not going to get any easier on the C2C route - wait until the GOBLIN runs to Barking Riverside and see what that does for demand for C2C services plus the new station at Beam Park on the Rainham line. |
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Post by john on Feb 17, 2017 8:48:17 GMT
No but let's be fair, their "priority" for rush hour should be those that live past the Travelcard area, so beyond Upminster and Rainham really. GEML had similar operations when during rush hour only the Metro services served Romford, in between peaks 2 fast services stopped, one Southend and 1 Colchester service. So feasible to do, just down to timetabling really considering you have LUL services alongside. Sorry but you're missing the point as to what has happened with the C2C corridor. All the people who commute from Essex think the line is theirs and people in "that London" can get stuffed. Well unfortunately things have changed. There is more development in East London, more people have moved further out to Zones 4-6 because of house price issues, C2C themselves built the platforms at West Ham to give interchange to the Jubilee Line for access to Docklands. We now have Stratford developing as a large employment centre. This means that C2C's passenger market and the nature of trips it carries has changed radically since the 1980s. The Essex commuters probably still think the service should run as in the 1980s but at modern performance levels. They have to get used to the fact that people in Greater London have as much right to use C2C as anyone else. The government specified a Metro style service on the route and the whingebags of Essex revolted about that. Things are not going to get any easier on the C2C route - wait until the GOBLIN runs to Barking Riverside and see what that does for demand for C2C services plus the new station at Beam Park on the Rainham line. No I do understand what's happened, you seem to be missing my point to in that c2c COULD introduce a service as I describe it's just for the reasons you've mentioned, they won't. Seeing as their operations are self contained, the only "commuter" service they really operate is on the Rainham line (as in metro). Whilst I fully respect your experience in transport planning, which is quite clearly extensive, my own background is transport orientated, all as front line. So I do understand what's going on and I don't dispute the services being provided, HOWEVER, you could still operate alternating services between West Ham and Upminster. I'm not 100% on times BUT you could do one Upminster train stopping at West ham every half hour, which would then run fast to Upminster and not serve Barking. Then the service that misses West Ham stops at Barking and Upminster. You still get 4 trains (or is it 6 as I haven't included the Ockendon branch here) an hour to Barking. Again, all of that is dependant on the two most important resources, rolling stock and drivers. The current timetable and stopping arrangements won't work with the growth in London and growth OUTSIDE London. Ockendon itself has seen a huge increase in housing. This is clearly going to continue so c2c will have to change the way the peak hours service operates. |
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Post by snoggle on Feb 17, 2017 11:56:16 GMT
Sorry but you're missing the point as to what has happened with the C2C corridor. All the people who commute from Essex think the line is theirs and people in "that London" can get stuffed. Well unfortunately things have changed. There is more development in East London, more people have moved further out to Zones 4-6 because of house price issues, C2C themselves built the platforms at West Ham to give interchange to the Jubilee Line for access to Docklands. We now have Stratford developing as a large employment centre. This means that C2C's passenger market and the nature of trips it carries has changed radically since the 1980s. The Essex commuters probably still think the service should run as in the 1980s but at modern performance levels. They have to get used to the fact that people in Greater London have as much right to use C2C as anyone else. The government specified a Metro style service on the route and the whingebags of Essex revolted about that. Things are not going to get any easier on the C2C route - wait until the GOBLIN runs to Barking Riverside and see what that does for demand for C2C services plus the new station at Beam Park on the Rainham line. No I do understand what's happened, you seem to be missing my point to in that c2c COULD introduce a service as I describe it's just for the reasons you've mentioned, they won't. Seeing as their operations are self contained, the only "commuter" service they really operate is on the Rainham line (as in metro). Whilst I fully respect your experience in transport planning, which is quite clearly extensive, my own background is transport orientated, all as front line. So I do understand what's going on and I don't dispute the services being provided, HOWEVER, you could still operate alternating services between West Ham and Upminster. I'm not 100% on times BUT you could do one Upminster train stopping at West ham every half hour, which would then run fast to Upminster and not serve Barking. Then the service that misses West Ham stops at Barking and Upminster. You still get 4 trains (or is it 6 as I haven't included the Ockendon branch here) an hour to Barking. Again, all of that is dependant on the two most important resources, rolling stock and drivers. The current timetable and stopping arrangements won't work with the growth in London and growth OUTSIDE London. Ockendon itself has seen a huge increase in housing. This is clearly going to continue so c2c will have to change the way the peak hours service operates. I have no experience as a transport planner other than some bus stuff many years ago. C2C have already changed the timetable to omit some peak time Barking stops. However the level of service you're suggesting is clearly inadequate for the demand. Yes there may well be a parallel slower tube service but people want to travel quickly so will inevitably go for the faster service. C2C are also stuck because they are a two track railway with barely any passing facilities east of Upminster / Barking so flighting of fast services and recessing of stoppers isn't feasible. You then have a choice about how to exploit the capacity that's there. The best way is actually to have the trains all do the same thing which for C2C is to make them stop at West Ham and Limehouse. There's the added bonus that a lot of their customers want to use those interchanges to reach Canary Wharf and, in future, Stratford. If you have alternate trains skip stopping certain stations they will run at varying speeds thus not making the best use of the signalled capacity. C2C are in the fortunate position of having extra trains funded in their franchise and have managed to get extra peak time stock very quickly which has eased some of the immediate issues. The real crunch will likely come in a couple of years when all the extra trains arrive and C2C have to reconsider how to deploy them. Passengers in Essex will have to accept that train times will change. They seem like so many commuters who throw a hissy fit when *their* 0708 train is proposed to run earlier or later - "oh no can't have that. My entire life will be destroyed if you change the train times". Apart from the fact that's not true the world doesn't stand still and certainly not on a busy rail corridor seeing enormous change. |
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Post by john on Feb 17, 2017 12:07:49 GMT
No I do understand what's happened, you seem to be missing my point to in that c2c COULD introduce a service as I describe it's just for the reasons you've mentioned, they won't. Seeing as their operations are self contained, the only "commuter" service they really operate is on the Rainham line (as in metro). Whilst I fully respect your experience in transport planning, which is quite clearly extensive, my own background is transport orientated, all as front line. So I do understand what's going on and I don't dispute the services being provided, HOWEVER, you could still operate alternating services between West Ham and Upminster. I'm not 100% on times BUT you could do one Upminster train stopping at West ham every half hour, which would then run fast to Upminster and not serve Barking. Then the service that misses West Ham stops at Barking and Upminster. You still get 4 trains (or is it 6 as I haven't included the Ockendon branch here) an hour to Barking. Again, all of that is dependant on the two most important resources, rolling stock and drivers. The current timetable and stopping arrangements won't work with the growth in London and growth OUTSIDE London. Ockendon itself has seen a huge increase in housing. This is clearly going to continue so c2c will have to change the way the peak hours service operates. I have no experience as a transport planner other than some bus stuff many years ago. C2C have already changed the timetable to omit some peak time Barking stops. However the level of service you're suggesting is clearly inadequate for the demand. Yes there may well be a parallel slower tube service but people want to travel quickly so will inevitably go for the faster service. C2C are also stuck because they are a two track railway with barely any passing facilities east of Upminster / Barking so flighting of fast services and recessing of stoppers isn't feasible. You then have a choice about how to exploit the capacity that's there. The best way is actually to have the trains all do the same thing which for C2C is to make them stop at West Ham and Limehouse. There's the added bonus that a lot of their customers want to use those interchanges to reach Canary Wharf and, in future, Stratford. If you have alternate trains skip stopping certain stations they will run at varying speeds thus not making the best use of the signalled capacity. C2C are in the fortunate position of having extra trains funded in their franchise and have managed to get extra peak time stock very quickly which has eased some of the immediate issues. The real crunch will likely come in a couple of years when all the extra trains arrive and C2C have to reconsider how to deploy them. Passengers in Essex will have to accept that train times will change. They seem like so many commuters who throw a hissy fit when *their* 0708 train is proposed to run earlier or later - "oh no can't have that. My entire life will be destroyed if you change the train times". Apart from the fact that's not true the world doesn't stand still and certainly not on a busy rail corridor seeing enormous change. Now I agree with this post completely. The issue is the 2 track working which does restrict things. What makes things even more difficult is that Grays - Upminster is a branch line, other than the 2 platform working at Ockendon. Now if that could be expanded then you could forgive the slower Upminster - Fenchurxh Street section for increased capacity that way. The problems I see are that you have alot of residential properties possibly stopping 2 track operation between Ockendon and Grays and the issue of Davy Down, not sure if it's a wildlife reserve (of sorts) like Rainham Marshes. |
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Post by routew15 on Mar 2, 2017 17:45:09 GMT
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Post by snoggle on Mar 2, 2017 21:00:47 GMT
You could, of course, look at it rather cynically and say that the relative immaturity of "commercial" franchise operation in Mainland Europe leaves plenty of scope for an experienced UK operator to strip out shed loads of cost and play "tunes" with fares and product offers to bump up revenue in a way the UK does not offer. Another view is that Nat Exp realised they've overpaid to retain C2C and could see they were on a hiding to nothing in the short term because of the furore over amended service patterns and overcrowding. Although they moved quickly to try to secure extra trains fast that was not in their business plan and I wonder if the deal they struck with DfT was not really what they wanted. C2C must be reaching the limits of what can practically be done in the peaks. Once nearly every train is 12 car what do you do? There are limits to what can be done off peak to extract more revenue. The peak is only ever going to get more pressured with more demand in East London and West Essex which just builds the pressure from discontented Essex commuters. I suspect a larger, state operation like Trenitalia is happy to cope with the risk and take its profits and have more modest "shareholder" expectations. Nat Express have to keep the City happy and that demands a different approach to what business you go after. |
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Post by snoggle on Mar 9, 2017 16:17:40 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Mar 10, 2017 8:18:48 GMT
Absolutely, very interesting to hear these concerns and points from someone in the know. Now if you apply the same to the London bus network franchising, do you think there are similar risks in terms of losses of profits ? Clearly First had concerns, but Metroline , Go Ahead , Arriva and Abellio don't . What happens when a large London firm starts really suffering from unreliability issues , starts missing out on performance bonuses, which will eat into their profit margin ? It would be really interesting to hear the views from a London bus firm chief exec , but I suppose they don't want to upset the man stroking the white cat at TfL HQ ! |
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Post by snoggle on Mar 10, 2017 10:48:46 GMT
Absolutely, very interesting to hear these concerns and points from someone in the know. Now if you apply the same to the London bus network franchising, do you think there are similar risks in terms of losses of profits ? Clearly First had concerns, but Metroline , Go Ahead , Arriva and Abellio don't . What happens when a large London firm starts really suffering from unreliability issues , starts missing out on performance bonuses, which will eat into their profit margin ? It would be really interesting to hear the views from a London bus firm chief exec , but I suppose they don't want to upset the man stroking the white cat at TfL HQ ! I actually don't think there is a cut across here. Rail franchisees usually hold revenue risk so are extremely sensitive to economic fluctuations. Their system also encourages them to make outrageous bids in order to retain franchises. Rail franchises tend to be very "asset light" with everything leased and the staff are effectively "on loan" as they transfer each time a franchise changes or else you'd have no service. Buses can be asset heavy with vehicles and depots owned (not always true but often the case) and of course staff are retained only if the operator does well. I think First Group took the view that TfL's approach was too restrictive and potential returns not marvellous. They also had the pressing need to raise revenue from asset sales to reduce their debt. To some extent they are not so much about profits per se but more about company survival. It has taken First a huge amount of time to begin to turn round its large urban networks and it is still selling off loss making work in more rural areas. I don't think we will see a major London operator quit in the near future. The scale of investment is high and while there are difficulties now they may not last forver. TfL hold revenue risk so operators are immune from farebox risk. They're not immune from cost changes and staff recruitment / retention issues. The crux is what TfL do in terms of trying to restore some earnings stability for the operators and patronage and revenue stability for themselves. I would expect that discussions are ongoing with operators and their concerns will be very evident in every bid being put forward for route contracts. |
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Post by Eastlondoner62 on Aug 3, 2017 14:49:55 GMT
This seems the most relevant thread to place this link, as it's the one on which most the c2c discussion has taken place  www.barkinganddagenhampost.co.uk/news/head-of-c2c-announces-intentions-to-improve-barking-station-1-5133943c2c plan to redesign Barking Station. Accessibility for cars and taxis is set to be improved. I know it was one of the franchise commitments when the franchise was retained by National Express that a sum of money would be set aside specifically for improving Barking Station however that seemed to have disappeared into the abyss. Hopefully the signage is completely overhauled, and some London Underground Roundels placed at the Underground platforms, as despite it's a c2c station it would help with passengers identifying the station. |
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Post by snoggle on Aug 3, 2017 15:00:39 GMT
This seems the most relevant thread to place this link, as it's the one on which most the c2c discussion has taken place www.barkinganddagenhampost.co.uk/news/head-of-c2c-announces-intentions-to-improve-barking-station-1-5133943c2c plan to redesign Barking Station. Accessibility for cars and taxis is set to be improved. I know it was one of the franchise commitments when the franchise was retained by National Express that a sum of money would be set aside specifically for improving Barking Station however that seemed to have disappeared into the abyss. Hopefully the signage is completely overhauled, and some London Underground Roundels placed at the Underground platforms, as despite it's a c2c station it would help with passengers identifying the station. I think they're going to struggle to make Barking resemble Roma Termini. However given the shambolic state of Termini when I visited Rome a few years ago perhaps allowing Barking stn to rot a bit more will bring them on a par.  I struggle to see why anything more has to be done for car and taxi access. I appreciate Mr Drury was talking to businessmen but surely an enormous proportion of users arrive on foot and by local bus. Paying a bit more attention to how those modes access the station and have convenient stops might be a better move. Still the stops outside Barking station are easier to use and find that the bus terminal in front of Termini which was a disgrace when I had to find the no60 bus to my hotel. The only saving grace to the whole thing was an enterprising shop owner in the station sold ATAC (Rome Transport) tickets and had a huge sign in several languages advertising the fact. He got my money for my weekly ticket! |
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