Route 311

[MetrolineGA1511]

Oct 28, 2018 20:15:59 GMT ADH45258 said:

Oct 28, 2018 20:12:48 GMT MetrolineGA1511 said:

Liverpool Street is not much of a tourist attraction but the Tower is.  So, maybe route 11 could be diverted to Blackwall and replace route 15. 

Or rather extend the 15 to Victoria. The 15 is equally a well known tourist route within central London.

It would then be possible to have route 11 from Fulham Broadway to Oxford Circus and route 15 from Victoria to Blackwall.  So no need for route 311 after all.  If there were any problems through route 11 no longer serving Liverpool Street then route 388 could return via Bank at least to Mansion House.

[southlondonbus]

Yes the 37 change was mroe about removing the sections and not having the route run by 2 separate divisions (companies once privatised) with the H37 tidying up the problem of diverting the 37 down back streets where parking was becoming a problem.

[ADH45258]

Oct 28, 2018 21:10:58 GMT MetrolineGA1511 said:

Oct 28, 2018 20:15:59 GMT ADH45258 said:

Or rather extend the 15 to Victoria. The 15 is equally a well known tourist route within central London.

It would then be possible to have route 11 from Fulham Broadway to Oxford Circus and route 15 from Victoria to Blackwall.  So no need for route 311 after all.  If there were any problems through route 11 no longer serving Liverpool Street then route 388 could return via Bank at least to Mansion House.

The 26 continues the link from Liverpool Street via the 11 as far as Aldwych

[ADH45258]

Oct 28, 2018 22:45:33 GMT ADH45258 said:

Oct 28, 2018 21:10:58 GMT MetrolineGA1511 said:

It would then be possible to have route 11 from Fulham Broadway to Oxford Circus and route 15 from Victoria to Blackwall.  So no need for route 311 after all.  If there were any problems through route 11 no longer serving Liverpool Street then route 388 could return via Bank at least to Mansion House.

The 26 continues the link from Liverpool Street via the 11 as far as Aldwych

The 91 could also be a candidate to extend from Aldwych to Victoria via the 11. I would also suggest to extend the 87 from Aldwych to Liverpool Street via the 11.

[M1104]

With London Bridge not having a direct bus link to the West End perhaps the 11 could be rerouted at Bank to terminate at City Hall via London Bridge and Tooley Street.

[cc2005]

Oct 28, 2018 19:33:51 GMT MetrolineGA1511 said:

Oct 28, 2018 16:35:19 GMT danorak said:

I don't think it's unreasonable to ponder this one so long as we're clear that we are just thinking aloud.

The proposals seem to hit Arriva hardest - the 48 and most of the 19, for which it seems to me the 311 is an indirect replacement, are being lost. The confused description of the 11/311/N11 changes in the consultation suggest to me that the original 11 contract may be assigned to the 311 with a new contract for the rump 11. So on that basis, I would not be surprised to see the 11 go to Arriva from AE and the 311 go to Go Ahead from SW.

All guesswork but hopefully with a dash of logic.

If that happens, people in the consultation will probably say that the Chelsea area will not be the same without route 11, a bit like Finchley Road and route 13.  This would lead to route 11 diverted to Oxford Circus and the Victoria - Liverpool Street given the number 311 instead. 

What I'm concerned about is that the proposals in the consultation document and the consultation questions are different:


Consultation document:
consultations.tfl.gov.uk/buses/f28a1e04/

Introduced a new route, the 311 between Fulham Broadway and Oxford Circus via Victoria station
Change route 11 so it will no longer run between Fulham Town Hall and Victoria station


Consultation questions:
consultations.tfl.gov.uk/buses/central-london/consultation/subpage.2018-09-17.9057881555/

Introduce new route 311 between Liverpool Street station and Victoria.
Change route 11 so that it no longer runs between Liverpool Street and Victoria and instead extend it from Victoria to Oxford Circus via Grosvenor Place, Piccadilly and Berkeley Square

Which is correct?

[John tuthill]

Oct 29, 2018 10:01:16 GMT M1104 said:

With London Bridge not having a direct bus link to the West End perhaps the 11 could be rerouted at Bank to terminate at City Hall via London Bridge and Tooley Street.

Maybe the powers that be consider the Jubilee Line adequate?(And quicker)

[joefrombow]

Oct 29, 2018 10:45:22 GMT cc2005 said:

Oct 28, 2018 19:33:51 GMT MetrolineGA1511 said:

If that happens, people in the consultation will probably say that the Chelsea area will not be the same without route 11, a bit like Finchley Road and route 13.  This would lead to route 11 diverted to Oxford Circus and the Victoria - Liverpool Street given the number 311 instead. 

What I'm concerned about is that the proposals in the consultation document and the consultation questions are different:


Consultation document:
consultations.tfl.gov.uk/buses/f28a1e04/

Introduced a new route, the 311 between Fulham Broadway and Oxford Circus via Victoria station
Change route 11 so it will no longer run between Fulham Town Hall and Victoria station


Consultation questions:
consultations.tfl.gov.uk/buses/central-london/consultation/subpage.2018-09-17.9057881555/

Introduce new route 311 between Liverpool Street station and Victoria.
Change route 11 so that it no longer runs between Liverpool Street and Victoria and instead extend it from Victoria to Oxford Circus via Grosvenor Place, Piccadilly and Berkeley Square

Which is correct?

"Drink*" up and Brewery comes to mind 🙄 I'm assuming though the 11 would be the City Route and 311 the Fulham Route and also that N11 would be the Night Route .

[ADH45258]

Oct 29, 2018 10:01:16 GMT M1104 said:

With London Bridge not having a direct bus link to the West End perhaps the 11 could be rerouted at Bank to terminate at City Hall via London Bridge and Tooley Street.

Currently, the RV1 just about gives a West End link from London Bridge, but is due to be withdrawn.

[M1104]

Oct 29, 2018 14:26:32 GMT ADH45258 said:

Oct 29, 2018 10:01:16 GMT M1104 said:

With London Bridge not having a direct bus link to the West End perhaps the 11 could be rerouted at Bank to terminate at City Hall via London Bridge and Tooley Street.

Currently, the RV1 just about gives a West End link from London Bridge, but is due to be withdrawn.

I forgot about that route, but would be all the more reason for the 11 (or another route) to continue a bus alternative to the Jubilee Line.

[busaholic]

Oct 29, 2018 10:01:16 GMT M1104 said:

With London Bridge not having a direct bus link to the West End perhaps the 11 could be rerouted at Bank to terminate at City Hall via London Bridge and Tooley Street.

<iframe width="24.200000000000045" height="3.240000000000009" style="position: absolute; width: 24.200000000000045px; height: 3.240000000000009px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none;left: 15px; top: -5px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_34632287" scrolling="no"></iframe>

<iframe width="24.200000000000045" height="3.240000000000009" style="position: absolute; width: 24.2px; height: 3.24px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 1149px; top: -5px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_5927261" scrolling="no"></iframe>

<iframe width="24.200000000000045" height="3.240000000000009" style="position: absolute; width: 24.2px; height: 3.24px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 15px; top: 102px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_22815734" scrolling="no"></iframe>

<iframe width="24.200000000000045" height="3.240000000000009" style="position: absolute; width: 24.2px; height: 3.24px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 1149px; top: 102px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_8763323" scrolling="no"></iframe>

It's been about fifty years since the 13 was cut back from London Bridge to Aldwych, which was the area's last direct route to the West End I think ignoring the RV1 , and even longer ago that the 7 departed the area,almost certainly never to return. Liverpool Street has more need than London Bridge to retain a tenuous link with Trafalgar Square, at the very least, though Regent Street would be miles better imo. London Bridge to Charing Cross is a quick and obvious train journey.

[ADH45258]

Oct 29, 2018 20:54:30 GMT busaholic said:

Oct 29, 2018 10:01:16 GMT M1104 said:

With London Bridge not having a direct bus link to the West End perhaps the 11 could be rerouted at Bank to terminate at City Hall via London Bridge and Tooley Street.

<iframe width="24.200000000000045" height="3.240000000000009" style="position: absolute; width: 24.200000000000045px; height: 3.240000000000009px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none;left: 15px; top: -5px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_34632287" scrolling="no"></iframe>

<iframe width="24.200000000000045" height="3.240000000000009" style="position: absolute; width: 24.2px; height: 3.24px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 1149px; top: -5px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_5927261" scrolling="no"></iframe>

<iframe width="24.200000000000045" height="3.240000000000009" style="position: absolute; width: 24.2px; height: 3.24px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 15px; top: 102px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_22815734" scrolling="no"></iframe>

<iframe width="24.200000000000045" height="3.240000000000009" style="position: absolute; width: 24.2px; height: 3.24px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 1149px; top: 102px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_8763323" scrolling="no"></iframe>

It's been about fifty years since the 13 was cut back from London Bridge to Aldwych, which was the area's last direct route to the West End I think ignoring the RV1 , and even longer ago that the 7 departed the area,almost certainly never to return. Liverpool Street has more need than London Bridge to retain a tenuous link with Trafalgar Square, at the very least, though Regent Street would be miles better imo. London Bridge to Charing Cross is a quick and obvious train journey.

I would definitely keep the 11 to Liverpool Street, though this could possibly be fully replaced by a 91 extension to Victoria and an 87 extension to Liverpool Street, with the 311 using the 11 number.

However, the 6 or 9 could possibly be extended from Aldwych to London Bridge - this could use Waterloo Bridge, Blackfriars Bridge or London Bridge to cross the Thames. Perhaps Blackfriars as it currently has fewer routes crossing it (soon to be reduced to just the 40 & 63), plus this would provide better bus links to Blackfriars Station.

[snoggle]

Oct 29, 2018 20:54:30 GMT busaholic said:

Oct 29, 2018 10:01:16 GMT M1104 said:

With London Bridge not having a direct bus link to the West End perhaps the 11 could be rerouted at Bank to terminate at City Hall via London Bridge and Tooley Street.

<iframe width="24.200000000000045" height="3.240000000000009" style="position: absolute; width: 24.200000000000045px; height: 3.240000000000009px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none;left: 15px; top: -5px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_34632287" scrolling="no"></iframe>

<iframe width="24.200000000000045" height="3.240000000000009" style="position: absolute; width: 24.2px; height: 3.24px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 1149px; top: -5px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_5927261" scrolling="no"></iframe>

<iframe width="24.200000000000045" height="3.240000000000009" style="position: absolute; width: 24.2px; height: 3.24px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 15px; top: 102px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_22815734" scrolling="no"></iframe>

<iframe width="24.200000000000045" height="3.240000000000009" style="position: absolute; width: 24.2px; height: 3.24px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 1149px; top: 102px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_8763323" scrolling="no"></iframe>

It's been about fifty years since the 13 was cut back from London Bridge to Aldwych, which was the area's last direct route to the West End I think ignoring the RV1 , and even longer ago that the 7 departed the area,almost certainly never to return. Liverpool Street has more need than London Bridge to retain a tenuous link with Trafalgar Square, at the very least, though Regent Street would be miles better imo. London Bridge to Charing Cross is a quick and obvious train journey.

Not disagreeing with your facts but a couple of observations re a bus link to London Bridge.

Despite what has transpired with the RV1 (mismanagement on a huge scale) there is a lot more activity off peak and weekends on the South Bank and at London Bridge than even 30 years ago never mind earlier. You only need to try (if you're feeling brave) to walk along the riverside at weekends, visit Borough Market or the market / food stands near the South Bank centre to see there is far more life. It's a bit like the City and Spitalfields being very much busier at weekends than in the 80s when I first encountered the barren landscape that was the City of London at weekends back then. The City has a decent transport service at the weekends these days but there are some missing links to London Bridge or else very awkward interchange to the 381.

I agree that the rail link is quick but the service has been disrupted for years and, of course, it's not on the tube map so I wonder how many people would really know to take the train. Commuters and a share of South Londoners would but I confess it wouldn't be the first thing that entered my head if I was at T Sq and wanted London Bridge.

[ronnie]

Oct 29, 2018 22:57:31 GMT snoggle said:

Oct 29, 2018 20:54:30 GMT busaholic said:

<iframe width="24.200000000000045" height="3.240000000000009" style="position: absolute; width: 24.200000000000045px; height: 3.240000000000009px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none;left: 15px; top: -5px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_34632287" scrolling="no"></iframe>

<iframe width="24.200000000000045" height="3.240000000000009" style="position: absolute; width: 24.2px; height: 3.24px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 1149px; top: -5px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_5927261" scrolling="no"></iframe>

<iframe width="24.200000000000045" height="3.240000000000009" style="position: absolute; width: 24.2px; height: 3.24px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 15px; top: 102px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_22815734" scrolling="no"></iframe>

<iframe width="24.200000000000045" height="3.240000000000009" style="position: absolute; width: 24.2px; height: 3.24px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 1149px; top: 102px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_8763323" scrolling="no"></iframe>

It's been about fifty years since the 13 was cut back from London Bridge to Aldwych, which was the area's last direct route to the West End I think ignoring the RV1 , and even longer ago that the 7 departed the area,almost certainly never to return. Liverpool Street has more need than London Bridge to retain a tenuous link with Trafalgar Square, at the very least, though Regent Street would be miles better imo. London Bridge to Charing Cross is a quick and obvious train journey.

Not disagreeing with your facts but a couple of observations re a bus link to London Bridge.

Despite what has transpired with the RV1 (mismanagement on a huge scale) there is a lot more activity off peak and weekends on the South Bank and at London Bridge than even 30 years ago never mind earlier. You only need to try (if you're feeling brave) to walk along the riverside at weekends, visit Borough Market or the market / food stands near the South Bank centre to see there is far more life. It's a bit like the City and Spitalfields being very much busier at weekends than in the 80s when I first encountered the barren landscape that was the City of London at weekends back then. The City has a decent transport service at the weekends these days but there are some missing links to London Bridge or else very awkward interchange to the 381.

I agree that the rail link is quick but the service has been disrupted for years and, of course, it's not on the tube map so I wonder how many people would really know to take the train. Commuters and a share of South Londoners would but I confess it wouldn't be the first thing that entered my head if I was at T Sq and wanted London Bridge.

Agree. I myself for some reason tend to avoid trains unless necessary (and especially if there is an alternative bus route which I havnt tried). Rule of thumb being - if it’s not on the tube map, average joe and Jenny won’t know it exists. I didn’t know about the greater anglia service to Ilford till it was renamed as tfl rail - used to take 25 for years from Aldgate to Ilford (still do but as an enthusiast)

[busaholic]

Oct 29, 2018 22:57:31 GMT snoggle said:

Oct 29, 2018 20:54:30 GMT busaholic said:

<iframe width="24.200000000000045" height="3.240000000000009" style="position: absolute; width: 24.200000000000045px; height: 3.240000000000009px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none;left: 15px; top: -5px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_34632287" scrolling="no"></iframe>

<iframe width="24.200000000000045" height="3.240000000000009" style="position: absolute; width: 24.2px; height: 3.24px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 1149px; top: -5px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_5927261" scrolling="no"></iframe>

<iframe width="24.200000000000045" height="3.240000000000009" style="position: absolute; width: 24.2px; height: 3.24px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 15px; top: 102px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_22815734" scrolling="no"></iframe>

<iframe width="24.200000000000045" height="3.240000000000009" style="position: absolute; width: 24.2px; height: 3.24px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 1149px; top: 102px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_8763323" scrolling="no"></iframe>

It's been about fifty years since the 13 was cut back from London Bridge to Aldwych, which was the area's last direct route to the West End I think ignoring the RV1 , and even longer ago that the 7 departed the area,almost certainly never to return. Liverpool Street has more need than London Bridge to retain a tenuous link with Trafalgar Square, at the very least, though Regent Street would be miles better imo. London Bridge to Charing Cross is a quick and obvious train journey.

Not disagreeing with your facts but a couple of observations re a bus link to London Bridge.

Despite what has transpired with the RV1 (mismanagement on a huge scale) there is a lot more activity off peak and weekends on the South Bank and at London Bridge than even 30 years ago never mind earlier. You only need to try (if you're feeling brave) to walk along the riverside at weekends, visit Borough Market or the market / food stands near the South Bank centre to see there is far more life. It's a bit like the City and Spitalfields being very much busier at weekends than in the 80s when I first encountered the barren landscape that was the City of London at weekends back then. The City has a decent transport service at the weekends these days but there are some missing links to London Bridge or else very awkward interchange to the 381.

I agree that the rail link is quick but the service has been disrupted for years and, of course, it's not on the tube map so I wonder how many people would really know to take the train. Commuters and a share of South Londoners would but I confess it wouldn't be the first thing that entered my head if I was at T Sq and wanted London Bridge.

it's been a little while, but I have made that riverside walk from Westminster Bridge right through to London Bridge, though not at the weekend, and shorter elements of it on a Saturday too, inc Borough Market, and I agree absolutely that at those times the ambience has changed dramatically over the years. On the other hand, I can remember when my own father as a City worker had to go in on Saturday mornings, though not every week, and one of the first batch of Red Arrow routes ran on Saturdays only to cater for those workers (the 504). So maybe there might be a case for considering some sort of special weekend routeings, which could be considered heresy by TfL's finest: on the other hand, they were (are?) considering cutting the 15H down to weekend only, so maybe not all is lost, if a bus route was realistically able to be timed at significantly more than walking pace. On the other hand, the RV1 experience would very much count against it, but, as you say, TfL incompetence has a lot to do with its demise, plus I'd add bloodymindedness.

On the matter of people not knowing about the rail link, well, what to say? i'm not disagreeing, I just bang my head head against the wall the way that information on public transport has been and still is so fragmented. The ubiquitous tube map will have all of Crossrail on it (eventually) but you'd look for Clapham Junction in vain, let alone knowing it has myriad trains per hour serving it from Waterloo. Just look at Goblin, which I believe you've intimate knowledge of, unlike me, and how if you bring such a service to public prominence it'll become rapidly oversubscribed. Anyway, hopefully the disruption between London Bridge and Charing Cross is mostly a thing of the past. A map of all rail services in London, like used to exist in Network S.E. days and was called something like 'London Connections' should not only be produced again but should be made widely available at all stations, bus stations, etc, but I am of course whistling in the wind there.