|
|
Post by vjaska on Aug 29, 2022 11:36:04 GMT
It won't be, London is nowhere near a city with top 20 any kind of transport links ... if you have Victorian infrastructure you show no aim in changing, you are bound by the restrictions it imposes. Even supposedly 3rd World countries have better designed cities than London. Have you seen how wide roads in the majority of cities outside the UK are? London roads were designed for the horse and cart ... is it any wonder we struggle! From previous quotes on here, there appears little appetite to change things. Welcome to 3rd world Britian. There has been decades of lack of planning and under investment. It would require something monumental now for London to become the forefront of transportation again. Anyone that thinks a road system built for the horse and cart is fit for the purpose of a 21st century transport system is a fool! But then many other cities outside of London has the same problem. You cannot blame it on Victorian or horse and cart era. You go to places in France, Spain etc and they have huge roads going through the city. Our problem has always been being tight penny pinchers using excuses not to do road building etc. Then even when we do, they are small and inadequate. It is a shame a lot of the ringways plan did not happen, this would have stopped many of the silly congestion points we have in London today. We now have gone further backwards by narrowing roads which create more accidents and dangerous pinch points. I don’t think you’ve really looked into the ringways scheme if you think most of it should of happened - it would of destroyed large parts of London especially my area where it would of ripped the heart & soul out of the centre of Brixton. Narrowing roads is backwards but the ringways scheme wasn’t a forwards move either - the real issue is, where appropriate, some roads haven’t been invested in enough or at all plus there are far too many cars on the road and not enough provisions towards public transport |
|
|
|
Post by LondonExplorer316 on Aug 29, 2022 12:10:08 GMT
I think you need to re-read your comment - where's the negative of pushing more people on public transport whether it's from cycling or elsewhere? That's a benefit not a negative. Money wise for people it's a bit of a negative, environmentally it makes no difference Environmentally is where it really makes the difference, because for every person on that bus, there could have been a car on the road a) clogging up our air and b) causing traffic jams So for example, if an 87 capacity bus is full, that means that there are 87 (maybe even more) less cars on the road |
|
|
|
Post by SILENCED on Aug 29, 2022 12:11:19 GMT
But then many other cities outside of London has the same problem. You cannot blame it on Victorian or horse and cart era. You go to places in France, Spain etc and they have huge roads going through the city. Our problem has always been being tight penny pinchers using excuses not to do road building etc. Then even when we do, they are small and inadequate. It is a shame a lot of the ringways plan did not happen, this would have stopped many of the silly congestion points we have in London today. We now have gone further backwards by narrowing roads which create more accidents and dangerous pinch points. I don’t think you’ve really looked into the ringways scheme if you think most of it should of happened - it would of destroyed large parts of London especially my area where it would of ripped the heart & soul out of the centre of Brixton. Narrowing roads is backwards but the ringways scheme wasn’t a forwards move either - the real issue is, where appropriate, some roads haven’t been invested in enough or at all plus there are far too many cars on the road and not enough provisions towards public transport Do you not think London would have adapted and we would still have a very vibrant, but different London we have today, but without a good percentage of the congestion. I believe London would be a very resilient city and very able to successfully adapt to major change ... they only thing holding it back for the last 60-70 years have been the nay sayers ... and they are the reason for the problems we have in the 2020's. The generations during this period have failed London. I would be living virtually on top of Ringway 3 if it had been built, but sure the surrounding areas would have evolved very differently to they have now. No doubt, some would be detrimental, but would expect the majority to have a positive effect. |
|
|
|
Post by greenboy on Aug 29, 2022 14:45:33 GMT
I don’t think you’ve really looked into the ringways scheme if you think most of it should of happened - it would of destroyed large parts of London especially my area where it would of ripped the heart & soul out of the centre of Brixton. Narrowing roads is backwards but the ringways scheme wasn’t a forwards move either - the real issue is, where appropriate, some roads haven’t been invested in enough or at all plus there are far too many cars on the road and not enough provisions towards public transport Do you not think London would have adapted and we would still have a very vibrant, but different London we have today, but without a good percentage of the congestion. I believe London would be a very resilient city and very able to successfully adapt to major change ... they only thing holding it back for the last 60-70 years have been the nay sayers ... and they are the reason for the problems we have in the 2020's. The generations during this period have failed London. I would be living virtually on top of Ringway 3 if it had been built, but sure the surrounding areas would have evolved very differently to they have now. No doubt, some would be detrimental, but would expect the majority to have a positive effect. There is still anger today in some parts of Glasgow about how some communities were decimated by the M8 motorway in the 1960s and the general feeling is that the benefits that were promised have never materialised. |
|
|
|
Post by greenboy on Aug 29, 2022 14:57:13 GMT
I was nearly hit by one near Holborn recently near Kingsway. This idiot decided to proceed at speed through a traffic light that was red at least 20 seconds before he approached it and I was walking across on a pedestrian green phase. I had to stop and move back. If it were a partially sighted person or someone on their phone he would have been straight into them. If a motorist was going through a red light like that 20 seconds after there would be severe consequences. I have 2 friends who over the years have ended up in hospital with broken legs after being hit by a cyclist (who needless to say didn’t stop!). I once almost got hit by a cyclist while already on the pedestrian crossing in front of the B&Q in Greenwich (the one next to ikea - on the bus onky portion) when a 180 had already stopped for me but mr. Cyclist clearly thought his time was too valuable) I was driving to battersea last Wednesday and in one signal alone in Peckham 3 cyclists went through a red light. The first one almost hitting a lady with a pram and having to swerve in front of my car; if he had damaged the car in any way I would have had a brawl with him! The second one just cycled on as if there was nothing else in the world apart from her. The 3rd one came, had a look and just went through One signal, 3 cyclists - expand statistically and you get a sense of the problem. The same allegations could be made at many drivers and obviously it's in cyclists own interest to avoid collisions with pedestrians as they're unlikely to come off unscathed. I saw a pedestrian run across the road at Elephant & Castle not long ago and get hit by a cyclist who came off worse. The pedestrian did apologise but then disappeared and it was left to passers-by to make sure the poor girl on the bike was ok, none of it was her fault. |
|
|
|
Post by northlondon83 on Aug 29, 2022 15:48:44 GMT
I have 2 friends who over the years have ended up in hospital with broken legs after being hit by a cyclist (who needless to say didn’t stop!). I once almost got hit by a cyclist while already on the pedestrian crossing in front of the B&Q in Greenwich (the one next to ikea - on the bus onky portion) when a 180 had already stopped for me but mr. Cyclist clearly thought his time was too valuable) I was driving to battersea last Wednesday and in one signal alone in Peckham 3 cyclists went through a red light. The first one almost hitting a lady with a pram and having to swerve in front of my car; if he had damaged the car in any way I would have had a brawl with him! The second one just cycled on as if there was nothing else in the world apart from her. The 3rd one came, had a look and just went through One signal, 3 cyclists - expand statistically and you get a sense of the problem. The same allegations could be made at many drivers and obviously it's in cyclists own interest to avoid collisions with pedestrians as they're unlikely to come off unscathed. I saw a pedestrian run across the road at Elephant & Castle not long ago and get hit by a cyclist who came off worse. The pedestrian did apologise but then disappeared and it was left to passers-by to make sure the poor girl on the bike was ok, none of it was her fault. Indeed and sometimes it's the fault of the pedestrian because they cross the road when there is a red man! They often do it in large swathes when their opportunity arises, I even saw one guy in Hayes cross the road yesterday, then decided to stop in the middle! Deliveroo and similar delivery riders often go through red lights probably because they are pressured into delivering food quickly, though by doing this are still putting lives at risk But e scooters are probably the worst culprits as they seem to carry on through the red lights and they go faster than cyclists |
|
|
|
Post by vjaska on Aug 29, 2022 17:42:48 GMT
I don’t think you’ve really looked into the ringways scheme if you think most of it should of happened - it would of destroyed large parts of London especially my area where it would of ripped the heart & soul out of the centre of Brixton. Narrowing roads is backwards but the ringways scheme wasn’t a forwards move either - the real issue is, where appropriate, some roads haven’t been invested in enough or at all plus there are far too many cars on the road and not enough provisions towards public transport Do you not think London would have adapted and we would still have a very vibrant, but different London we have today, but without a good percentage of the congestion. I believe London would be a very resilient city and very able to successfully adapt to major change ... they only thing holding it back for the last 60-70 years have been the nay sayers ... and they are the reason for the problems we have in the 2020's. The generations during this period have failed London. I would be living virtually on top of Ringway 3 if it had been built, but sure the surrounding areas would have evolved very differently to they have now. No doubt, some would be detrimental, but would expect the majority to have a positive effect. No I really don’t think London would of adapted - we would have numerous areas of even worse decay and decline similar to what happened with the building of Westway only on a much larger scale and congestion would be even worse than is present because multiple new roads will attract more people to drive rather than removing cars off the road in favour of other forms of transport. The destruction in some areas was more substantial than you seem to realise. Brixton, for example, would end up essentially a small Croydon with loads of soulless skyscrapers replacing the current buildings that date back to the early 1900’s and before, with a motorway running right through the centre. The disadvantages for us clearly outweighed the benefits of any scheme and thank goodness the only reminder of the scheme in the area is the Barrier Block flats on the Somerleyton Estate which were built to block the noise out from the motorway |
|
|
|
Post by capitalomnibus on Aug 31, 2022 8:48:53 GMT
Maybe some of them were wearing rose tinted glasses. I am sorry but I have seen far too many accidents on the road caused by cyclists. Especially the lycra lout brigade. They are almost as bad as the pizza delivery mopeds. Or maybe you're wearing the rose tinted specs? 🤣 And this 'lycra lout' tag is stereotyping a bit. It's reckoned that most adult cyclists also hold driving licences and I can't imagine they go from being louts to law abiding citizens when they get into a car. I do agree with you though about pizza delivering mopeds, often their driving standards are appalling. Maybe moped licences, not FULL car driving licences. |
|
|
|
Post by capitalomnibus on Aug 31, 2022 8:53:22 GMT
But then many other cities outside of London has the same problem. You cannot blame it on Victorian or horse and cart era. You go to places in France, Spain etc and they have huge roads going through the city. Our problem has always been being tight penny pinchers using excuses not to do road building etc. Then even when we do, they are small and inadequate. It is a shame a lot of the ringways plan did not happen, this would have stopped many of the silly congestion points we have in London today. We now have gone further backwards by narrowing roads which create more accidents and dangerous pinch points. I don’t think you’ve really looked into the ringways scheme if you think most of it should of happened - it would of destroyed large parts of London especially my area where it would of ripped the heart & soul out of the centre of Brixton. Narrowing roads is backwards but the ringways scheme wasn’t a forwards move either - the real issue is, where appropriate, some roads haven’t been invested in enough or at all plus there are far too many cars on the road and not enough provisions towards public transport We would have never ended up with great roads like the A406 between Beckton and Edmonton and stuck with many other slow traffic hotspots. The same goes for the M11 link road. The time taken from Bow roundabout to Redbridge roundabout was VERY long. It meant going via Stratford and Leytonstone High Rd. It had made a near 40 minute journey gone down to 10 minutes. |
|
|
|
Post by MKAY315 on Aug 31, 2022 11:11:32 GMT
I don’t think you’ve really looked into the ringways scheme if you think most of it should of happened - it would of destroyed large parts of London especially my area where it would of ripped the heart & soul out of the centre of Brixton. Narrowing roads is backwards but the ringways scheme wasn’t a forwards move either - the real issue is, where appropriate, some roads haven’t been invested in enough or at all plus there are far too many cars on the road and not enough provisions towards public transport We would have never ended up with great roads like the A406 between Beckton and Edmonton and stuck with many other slow traffic hotspots. The same goes for the M11 link road. The time taken from Bow roundabout to Redbridge roundabout was VERY long. It meant going via Stratford and Leytonstone High Rd. It had made a near 40 minute journey gone down to 10 minutes. That M11 link road was a controversial move in the 90s I still remembered when those folk in Leytonstone tied themselves to the houses before the police came to escort them off |
|
|
|
Post by vjaska on Aug 31, 2022 11:52:04 GMT
I don’t think you’ve really looked into the ringways scheme if you think most of it should of happened - it would of destroyed large parts of London especially my area where it would of ripped the heart & soul out of the centre of Brixton. Narrowing roads is backwards but the ringways scheme wasn’t a forwards move either - the real issue is, where appropriate, some roads haven’t been invested in enough or at all plus there are far too many cars on the road and not enough provisions towards public transport We would have never ended up with great roads like the A406 between Beckton and Edmonton and stuck with many other slow traffic hotspots. The same goes for the M11 link road. The time taken from Bow roundabout to Redbridge roundabout was VERY long. It meant going via Stratford and Leytonstone High Rd. It had made a near 40 minute journey gone down to 10 minutes. But that’s not exactly true because the A406 idea has anything to do with the ringways scheme - the A406 was had started to be upgraded before ringways and was still being upgraded long after the idea was confined to the bin. In fact, it was meant to receive certain upgrades through the ringways scheme that it didn’t get because they were pretty controversial like a lot of the scheme itself. Like I’ve already said, you want to remove traffic, time for a sizeable proportion to ditch their cars - you mentioned the M11 link road, a decade after its construction, it was the 9th most congested road in the country and some of the old A406 route, despite the existence relief road, is still full of congestion |
|
|
|
Post by capitalomnibus on Sept 4, 2022 12:04:08 GMT
We would have never ended up with great roads like the A406 between Beckton and Edmonton and stuck with many other slow traffic hotspots. The same goes for the M11 link road. The time taken from Bow roundabout to Redbridge roundabout was VERY long. It meant going via Stratford and Leytonstone High Rd. It had made a near 40 minute journey gone down to 10 minutes. But that’s not exactly true because the A406 idea has anything to do with the ringways scheme - the A406 was had started to be upgraded before ringways and was still being upgraded long after the idea was confined to the bin. In fact, it was meant to receive certain upgrades through the ringways scheme that it didn’t get because they were pretty controversial like a lot of the scheme itself. Like I’ve already said, you want to remove traffic, time for a sizeable proportion to ditch their cars - you mentioned the M11 link road, a decade after its construction, it was the 9th most congested road in the country and some of the old A406 route, despite the existence relief road, is still full of congestion The ringways plan was done in the 1940's initially, although has changed to various guises over the years. www.roads.org.uk/ringways A lot of the north Circular is part of the ringways, there is no way it would have been the multi lane road it is. The section between Edmonton Cambridge and Beckton which is very free flowing and constructed in different stages. The original North Circular Road is nothing like it is today, especially through parts of Walthamstow where it went via some more residential parts and different routings. The only sad bits of the ringways upgrade to it, that pubs like Charlie Browns (South Woodford) and Crooked Billet (Walthamstow) was demolished. www.roads.org.uk/ringways/ringway2/north-circular-roadCost was always the biggest problem and many tactics by the government to avoid spending money. The link road part is congested only with direction flow at certain times of the day. i.e 7am-9am, 16:00-1800. Even still it is around 20-30mph at these times.Still way faster than the alternative of Leytonstone High Rd. If it had not been built I dread to imagine roads like Forest Rd, Walthamstow, Leyton High Rd, Leytonstone High Rd. I remember how bad roads were in the area for buses then before the link road, especially in Leyton and Leytonstone. Many of these roads were cleared of heavy traffic after the link rd had been created. They have now only started seeing traffic delays created by the council closing off various side roads. |
|
|
|
Post by vjaska on Sept 4, 2022 12:27:28 GMT
But that’s not exactly true because the A406 idea has anything to do with the ringways scheme - the A406 was had started to be upgraded before ringways and was still being upgraded long after the idea was confined to the bin. In fact, it was meant to receive certain upgrades through the ringways scheme that it didn’t get because they were pretty controversial like a lot of the scheme itself. Like I’ve already said, you want to remove traffic, time for a sizeable proportion to ditch their cars - you mentioned the M11 link road, a decade after its construction, it was the 9th most congested road in the country and some of the old A406 route, despite the existence relief road, is still full of congestion The ringways plan was done in the 1940's initially, although has changed to various guises over the years. www.roads.org.uk/ringways A lot of the north Circular is part of the ringways, there is no way it would have been the multi lane road it is. The section between Edmonton Cambridge and Beckton which is very free flowing and constructed in different stages. The original North Circular Road is nothing like it is today, especially through parts of Walthamstow where it went via some more residential parts and different routings. The only sad bits of the ringways upgrade to it, that pubs like Charlie Browns (South Woodford) and Crooked Billet (Walthamstow) was demolished. www.roads.org.uk/ringways/ringway2/north-circular-roadCost was always the biggest problem and many tactics by the government to avoid spending money. The link road part is congested only with direction flow at certain times of the day. i.e 7am-9am, 16:00-1800. Even still it is around 20-30mph at these times.Still way faster than the alternative of Leytonstone High Rd. If it had not been built I dread to imagine roads like Forest Rd, Walthamstow, Leyton High Rd, Leytonstone High Rd. I remember how bad roads were in the area for buses then before the link road, especially in Leyton and Leytonstone. Many of these roads were cleared of heavy traffic after the link rd had been created. They have now only started seeing traffic delays created by the council closing off various side roads. Cost wasn’t the biggest problem - it was the inevitable backlash from such a poorly thought out scheme that saw it mostly dropped. There was congestion even before the closure of roads - the closure of roads, which I don’t agree with, has only amplified that fact |
|
|
|
Post by capitalomnibus on Sept 5, 2022 8:51:27 GMT
The ringways plan was done in the 1940's initially, although has changed to various guises over the years. www.roads.org.uk/ringways A lot of the north Circular is part of the ringways, there is no way it would have been the multi lane road it is. The section between Edmonton Cambridge and Beckton which is very free flowing and constructed in different stages. The original North Circular Road is nothing like it is today, especially through parts of Walthamstow where it went via some more residential parts and different routings. The only sad bits of the ringways upgrade to it, that pubs like Charlie Browns (South Woodford) and Crooked Billet (Walthamstow) was demolished. www.roads.org.uk/ringways/ringway2/north-circular-roadCost was always the biggest problem and many tactics by the government to avoid spending money. The link road part is congested only with direction flow at certain times of the day. i.e 7am-9am, 16:00-1800. Even still it is around 20-30mph at these times.Still way faster than the alternative of Leytonstone High Rd. If it had not been built I dread to imagine roads like Forest Rd, Walthamstow, Leyton High Rd, Leytonstone High Rd. I remember how bad roads were in the area for buses then before the link road, especially in Leyton and Leytonstone. Many of these roads were cleared of heavy traffic after the link rd had been created. They have now only started seeing traffic delays created by the council closing off various side roads. Cost wasn’t the biggest problem - it was the inevitable backlash from such a poorly thought out scheme that saw it mostly dropped. There was congestion even before the closure of roads - the closure of roads, which I don’t agree with, has only amplified that fact Definitely disagree, these are roads i drove when I started driving buses in Leyton. The delays went and bus lanes that were on the Southern part of Leyton High Rd was not needed anymore after the link road opened. The only time traffic was there was Leyton Orient match days. Leytonstone High Rd was the same, it was eliminated. It was one of the reasons the 108 was cut back to Stratford due to heavy traffic on the High Rd, the 257 used to have regular turns. When the link road opened, it was a shocking place to see the High Rd at Leytonstone being clear. Then the council decided to do a reverse clash one-way system that bought back traffic to the northern part of the High Rd. It still has not had the kind of traffic that tailed back to Thatched House as it used to pre link road days. Anyone that lived in the area then would tell you, roads like Grove Green Rd etc used to be solid with traffic. some of these delays wrecked the bus network in the 80's and early 90's within the area. The wreckers of the network now is the council with crazy bus lane removal, cycle lanes and side road closures; with the biggest loser being buses. |
|
|
|
Post by MKAY315 on Sept 5, 2022 11:41:16 GMT
Cost wasn’t the biggest problem - it was the inevitable backlash from such a poorly thought out scheme that saw it mostly dropped. There was congestion even before the closure of roads - the closure of roads, which I don’t agree with, has only amplified that fact Definitely disagree, these are roads i drove when I started driving buses in Leyton. The delays went and bus lanes that were on the Southern part of Leyton High Rd was not needed anymore after the link road opened. The only time traffic was there was Leyton Orient match days. Leytonstone High Rd was the same, it was eliminated. It was one of the reasons the 108 was cut back to Stratford due to heavy traffic on the High Rd, the 257 used to have regular turns. When the link road opened, it was a shocking place to see the High Rd at Leytonstone being clear. Then the council decided to do a reverse clash one-way system that bought back traffic to the northern part of the High Rd. It still has not had the kind of traffic that tailed back to Thatched House as it used to pre link road days. Anyone that lived in the area then would tell you, roads like Grove Green Rd etc used to be solid with traffic. some of these delays wrecked the bus network in the 80's and early 90's within the area. The wreckers of the network now is the council with crazy bus lane removal, cycle lanes and side road closures; with the biggest loser being buses. That probably explains why the 66 and 145 used to only go as far as the Green Man back in the day |
|
