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Post by ADH45258 on Apr 19, 2024 11:17:00 GMT
My own thoughts on these proposals - the revised network just seems a mess, and not fully thought through.
The original Superloop seemed an attempt to cover as many parts of London as possible in one loop, but they should have considered at the time if there was a possibility of introducing more orbital routes later on. Because now the concept of a continuous loop around the city is kind of lost, some routes go outside the original loop, some inside.
The logical solution here would have been to plan two separate loops in the first place. Push the original loop further out in North London to serve Edgware/Barnet/Enfield/Chingford, then later on introduce an inner loop, serving places like Wimbledon, Ealing, Brent Cross, and so on. The original superloop network was easy for passengers to understand. And with an expanded network, two neat circles would make so much more sense than what has been proposed.
My second point is on the radial routes. I still think like many others, that if they were to use the Superloop name, this should have excluded routes like the X68 and 607. But while the SL6/SL8 have a clear purpose, in linking areas with poor rail links, I struggle to see the need, advantage or demand for the proposed radial routes (including the SL4). Especially as several of these routes use fast dual-carriageway roads, so are unlikely to offer much advantage to existing routes like the 66 or H91.
Also, the main purpose of the Superloop as a concept is to fill in the gaps that aren't provided by tube/rail services. And many of the existing Superloop routes have succeeded here, making journeys between suburbs easier, where passengers previously would have had to travel into Central London and out again. But many of the proposed routes already have adequate rail links.
In my opinion, they should have simplified the network into an inner and outer loop. These together with the Overground would then offer orbital links around most areas of London. Ideally another loop even further out would be useful (serving places like Watford, Romford and Dartford), but would be difficult to fund as much of the route would be outside of Greater London. Then alongside the loops, keep a small number of radial express routes for more unique corridors like the SL6/SL8, but not necessarily using the Superloop branding for these.
I suggested before something like the following for a simplified Superloop network. Also starting the numbering at the Thames rather than in North London.
OUTER LOOP:
SL1 Thamesmead - Bromley
SL2 Bromley - Sutton
SL3 Sutton - Heathrow
SL4 Heathrow - Edgware
SL5 Edgware - Chingford
SL6 Chingford - Barking Riverside
INNER LOOP:
SL11 North Greenwich - Crystal Palace
SL12 Crystal Palace - Wimbledon
SL13 Wimbledon - Ealing Broadway
SL14 Ealing Broadway - Brent Cross
SL15 Brent Cross - Walthamstow
SL16 Walthamstow - North Greenwich
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Post by DE20106 on Apr 19, 2024 12:18:01 GMT
Map featured. Who else has noticed that SL5/SL7 change at the bottom? 👀 Ominous. Personally I would say that’s a sloppy mistake. Considering how packed SL7’s leave Croydon I can’t imagine those passengers would be too impressed about losing their gateway to SouthWest London. Also if you’re going beyond Sutton from Heathrow, you’d highly likely fall out of the hopper fare time limit |
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Post by enviroPB on Apr 19, 2024 12:34:16 GMT
Can't believe everyone is ignoring the Ealing Broadway - Kingston route. Perhaps the concept of a X65 is why the 65's tender award is delayed?
A couple good proposals in there, namely Richmond to Wimbledon which I think deserves a quicker link than what the 493 offers.
Some of these proposals can work as normal routes if bus priority was focused on. It'd be a terrible cop out if all new routes were Superloop, effectively treating the rest of the bus network as a forgotten child.
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Post by paulo on Apr 19, 2024 13:11:51 GMT
Unless the Hounslow to Hammersmith superloop route is going to the A4/Great West Road all the way to Hammersmith then it’s a re-numbering of the H91.
If it’s to serve the Chiswick High Road then the term express is the most misleading statement in bus world history.
Those loons at Hounslow Council have made the biggest mess of a road reconfiguration known to man.
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Post by Dad91 on Apr 19, 2024 14:34:38 GMT
Unless the Hounslow to Hammersmith superloop route is going to the A4/Great West Road all the way to Hammersmith then it’s a re-numbering of the H91. If it’s to serve the Chiswick High Road then the term express is the most misleading statement in bus world history. Those loons at Hounslow Council have made the biggest mess of a road reconfiguration known to man. looks like Romford Road and Barking Road missing Superloop. Be great Superloop White City and Feltham via 237 |
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Post by Dad91 on Apr 19, 2024 14:36:58 GMT
The proposed Superloop 2 routes, all subject to consultation, are: Harrow to Barnet, via Edgware Barnet to Stratford, via Enfield and Chingford Leytonstone to South Havering, via Gants Hill and Romford North Greenwich to Thamesmead, via Woolwich ‘Bakerloop line’: Elephant and Castle to Lewisham, via Old Kent Road and New Cross Streatham to Eltham, via Tulse Hill and Lee Richmond to Wimbledon, via Roehampton Ealing Broadway to Kingston, via Great West Road and Richmond Hounslow to Hammersmith, via Great West Road Hendon to Ealing Broadway, via Brent Cross and Hanger Lane Isn't the Hammersmith-Hounslow basically the H91? be batter extended further to Feltham Leisure West |
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Post by londonbuses on Apr 19, 2024 15:11:11 GMT
So if the SL5/SL7 change goes ahead, would SL7 still be the longest route in London? If not then what would? I believe it would still be the longest daytime route, but quite a few night routes would be longer than it. |
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Post by mondraker275 on Apr 19, 2024 16:00:09 GMT
Fascinating stuff. Immediate thoughts: - Harrow, Ealing Broadway and Walthamstow will have three Superloop buses. Wlathamstow Market likely the only stop that will serve three SL at one stop. - In relation to above, a bit odd you have SL1 to support 34 for most parts, and another SL that goes to the 34 destination but if you wanted that you are better off taking the SL1 and then 34... Having said that the SL1 to North Finchley is very useful addition. - Dont mind Chingford - Barnet route. Is there anything to read into that Walthamstow Central is now Walthamstow and the destination is Stratford and not Stratford City so it could be a combo of 97/158 at some parts. - Like the split of SL7 but could they have split SL3 and have North Greenwich Superloop and SL3 both terminate at Abbey Wood? However, took SL3 the other day with no traffic at all and the journey was excellent. - SL6 sticks out. Clearly no intention to make it all day. It should be! - Clear gap in where I think we need a SL. Along the 149 corridor. - In relation to above, most suggestions and current routes are along fast roads. SL will be slightly faster but we should not forget about the advantage over buses on normal roads. Which is why I like X65. - BakerLoop may not have its own branding or numbering??? - I can see H91, 472 and the BakerLoop being quickly introduced due to ease. Hopefully one these takes SL11 before it's given to the Chingford route and we have SL1 and SL11  |
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Post by bk10mfe on Apr 19, 2024 16:06:52 GMT
Will give an opinion on each one of the new proposed routes individually (& the SL5/SL7 possible changes). Will be going clockwise around the loop:
North Greenwich-Thamesmead: Not particularly useful, many people didn’t like the 180 diverting to North Greenwich as part of the Elizabeth line changes & this will likely further overbus the Woolwich-North Greenwich corridor. I think this route could be removed & the Bakerloop proposed route should simply be restructured to run between E&C & Thamesmead, via the 53 to Woolwich then the 472, the 53 needs capacity a lot more than the 180/472 do. The 21 & 172 could swap termini south of New Cross if a faster link between Lewisham & E&C is needed.
Lewisham-E&C: the faster link between Lewisham & E&C is useful, but this can be achieved by my previous suggestion & as previously stated the 53 needs more capacity on its route.
Eltham-Streatham: This one will probably single deck assuming it’s taking the S-Circular along its route. It will probably serve Forest Hill/Catford too which are not mentioned on there. This one is useful in terms of links but may run into a lot of traffic quite easily.
Wimbledon-Richmond: It’s nice to have the Superloop being local to me, though if this takes the S-Circular between Barnes/Richmond this can easily be held up in traffic. Ideally I would send it through Richmond Park non stop though I imagine this wouldn’t be possible.
Kingston-Ealing Broadway: An express version of the 65; I wonder if the 65 will reduce in frequency if this new route is implemented. I also think this route should run via the A406 non stop between Kew & Ealing.
Hammersmith-Hounslow: I believe this will be an express version of the 237 & not the H91, which is actually much needed given how rammed 237’s can get.
Ealing Broadway-Hendon: Another much needed route, due to how busy the 112 gets. It also restores the Ealing-Hendon link the 83 used to have until 2016 when it was cut back to Alperton.
Harrow-Barnet: Another one that I could see being useful, though I would have the 384 revert to its old routing, as there is no point in having the 384 provide the fast Edgware-Barnet link if this route will do the same.
Barnet-Chingford: An express version of the 307/313, which I could also see being useful, though I imagine it wouldn’t be much faster than the existing 307 between Barnet & Enfield. Also wonder if the 307 will reduce in frequency if this new route is introduced.
Chingford-Stratford: An express version of the 97, which is also useful because the 97 also gets busy. Like with the 65/307 I wonder if the 97 will reduce in frequency.
Leytonstone-South Havering: Yes the 66 is quite fast between Leytonstone & Romford but does take a small detour to serve Snaresbrook, while this route won’t do that. It’s unclear where the route will terminate in South Havering, but I would think at Rainham Station, which I think could do with a faster link to Romford than the 103.
SL5/SL7 changes: Not a good idea at all for several reasons.
Some of these new routes are good, but there are others that are redundant & resources could be spent elsewhere.
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Post by WH241 on Apr 19, 2024 16:46:15 GMT
The revised route map is a mess and clunky!
I wish they would either drop the whole loop concept or keep the Superloop branding for the existing routes (Except the SL6 and SL8) and brand any new routes as "Express" services.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2024 17:05:45 GMT
I like the rationale of using Sutton Station as SL5/SL7 terminating point but my memories of Sutton Station is that there's not much bus stand space at the station itself allied with a lot of routes serving the station. Is there enough space or are you advocating parking on stand away from Sutton Station? There is plenty of space at the back of the station on The Quadrant (where the 164, 470 and N44 currently stand) to accomodate both routes, providing the 164 is extended to Belmont as planned. If it is necessary, the coach stop could also be converted into an additional stand.470 uses that whilst the 164 uses the one on the left adjacent to the toilet |
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Post by COBO on Apr 19, 2024 17:28:56 GMT
The proposed Superloop 2 routes, all subject to consultation, are: Harrow to Barnet, via Edgware Barnet to Stratford, via Enfield and Chingford Leytonstone to South Havering, via Gants Hill and Romford North Greenwich to Thamesmead, via Woolwich ‘Bakerloop line’: Elephant and Castle to Lewisham, via Old Kent Road and New Cross Streatham to Eltham, via Tulse Hill and Lee Richmond to Wimbledon, via Roehampton Ealing Broadway to Kingston, via Great West Road and Richmond Hounslow to Hammersmith, via Great West Road Hendon to Ealing Broadway, via Brent Cross and Hanger Lane It is like TfL read my mind 😂 |
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Post by britishguy54 on Apr 19, 2024 17:30:35 GMT
So the X66 between Leytonstone and South Havering, huh?
I suppose it’s not a bad idea. I can see the route going through Elm Park, towards Rainham.
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Post by evergreenadam on Apr 19, 2024 18:15:00 GMT
Unless the Hounslow to Hammersmith superloop route is going to the A4/Great West Road all the way to Hammersmith then it’s a re-numbering of the H91. If it’s to serve the Chiswick High Road then the term express is the most misleading statement in bus world history. Those loons at Hounslow Council have made the biggest mess of a road reconfiguration known to man. It may not serve Hounslow West, more likely to serve Hounslow town centre, given the amount of new housing recently allowed around Gillette Corner which would benefit from a more direct route to Hounslow than the H28. |
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Post by Busboy105 on Apr 19, 2024 19:02:18 GMT
Isn't the Hammersmith-Hounslow basically the H91? be batter extended further to Feltham Leisure West Or maybe just Feltham? |
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