|
Post by Eastlondoner62 on May 25, 2014 21:01:02 GMT
Do TFL even try to help this route? It's pretty bad in terms of crowd and service. I think it needs to go to another operator or an express route made for it just like the 607 helps out the 207. Maybe it could even be operated by two different operators.
Also what operators have garages suitable for Operation along the route?
|
|
|
Route 25
May 25, 2014 21:29:57 GMT
via mobile
Post by Mokujin on May 25, 2014 21:29:57 GMT
Why should two operators run one route? I don't understand why the 25 is still struggling as it has support: Ilford - Stratford section: Route 86 and N86 (86 is also a high-frequent route)
Bow - Aldgate: Routes 205 and N205 (205 is high-frequent)
Stratford - Mile End: Route 425
And there are other routes in the City which run alongside the 25. The 25 also gets curtailed to Bank which helps regulate the service. Perhaps the 25 needs its reliability sorted out.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 25, 2014 21:37:12 GMT
Do TFL even try to help this route? It's pretty bad in terms of crowd and service. I think it needs to go to another operator or an express route made for it just like the 607 helps out the 207. Maybe it could even be operated by two different operators. Also what operators have garages suitable for Operation along the route? I am confused to what having two operators would achieve?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 25, 2014 21:39:34 GMT
Just wondering a new route Aldgate - Ilford would this help the overcrowding?
|
|
|
Post by marlon101 on May 25, 2014 21:48:46 GMT
All well and good suggesting that the route has support and suggesting patches with additional routes but the route does carry passengers over the full length of the route, from the East End into the heart of the city.
I'm not entirely sure what the solution is, but additional overlapping routes certainly isn't! As far as I'm concerned the main solution is to keep throwing buses at it... Journey time clearly isn't much of an issue for its large patronage & EWT won't become a problem - its jut a capacity thing. That said, I don't see the overcrowding as a huge issue. It's necessary to force those who could afford it onto the District Line & I'd definitely be reluctant to implement widespread changes until new journey patterns settle down after the opening of Crossrail.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Route 25
May 26, 2014 0:15:19 GMT
via mobile
Post by Deleted on May 26, 2014 0:15:19 GMT
This route must be a complete nightmare to manage.i would have some of the allocation moved to X personally. Maybe that would assist flexibility and reliability. Any hold up en route quickly creates a big bunching problem to sort out. The roads it traverses should have 24/7 bus lanes. If this were operating under pre-privatisation days , it would probably have 3 garages running it.
|
|
|
Post by sid on May 26, 2014 0:20:15 GMT
Do TFL even try to help this route? It's pretty bad in terms of crowd and service. I think it needs to go to another operator or an express route made for it just like the 607 helps out the 207. Maybe it could even be operated by two different operators. Also what operators have garages suitable for Operation along the route? An express route would help but it's one of these routes that will always suffer overcrowding, is the route run any better or any worse than when Stagecoach ran it? I don't see how having two operators would help the situation.
|
|
|
Route 25
May 26, 2014 0:38:34 GMT
via mobile
Post by ThinLizzy on May 26, 2014 0:38:34 GMT
Why should two operators run one route? I don't understand why the 25 is still struggling as it has support: Ilford - Stratford section: Route 86 and N86 (86 is also a high-frequent route) Bow - Aldgate: Routes 205 and N205 (205 is high-frequent) Stratford - Mile End: Route 425 And there are other routes in the City which run alongside the 25. The 25 also gets curtailed to Bank which helps regulate the service. Perhaps the 25 needs its reliability sorted out. The 25 is one of those routes that no matter how many buses you put on it it'll get crowded and will run late. Personally I feel the best option is two overlapping sections- Ilford to Bank and Stratford to OXO
|
|
|
Post by snoggle on May 26, 2014 0:49:32 GMT
If you are going to try to devise a solution to the "problem" of the 25 you need to establish some of the history.
Route 25 - an increase of over 11m pax jnys in 12 years. (135%) Route 86 - an increase of over 6m pax jnys in 12 years (over 100%) Route 205 - has helped mop up around 4m jnys after 2007 when it was extended eastwards Route 425 - harder to deal with but it carries over 2m pax a year but not all of that is between Stratford and Mile End.
This scale of increase is virtually impossible to deal with with buses on non reserved roads. All TfL have done is throw more and more resource at parts of the corridor to try to deal with the level of demand. However it has had to botch the 25 at its Western end to deal with Oxford St shops, Holborn Circus roadworks and the never ending disaster that is roads in the City. How many times has Cornhill been closed for months in recent years?
Whatever scope there was for bus priority between Bow and Stratford has gone because of the cycle superhighway (CSH) works. TfL themselves declared bus journey times would increase as a result of the most recent cycle works at Bow and in to Stratford. There are going to be more CSH works between Bow and the City which will slow the 25 and 205 even more. There is no point in throwing more buses into a corridor where average speeds are going to fall and there is no prospect of more bus priority. The ideal would be to have really excellent bus priority with traffic light priority, high quality stops and frequent services to raise capacity but London has no examples of such infrastructure because there's no willingness to lose the capacity for cars. Even the North Greenwich peninsula "busway" doesn't give buses priority at junctions!
What TfL really need to find out is where on earth people are travelling to and from on the City - Romford corridor and how wide the catchment area is. There may actually be more merit, if the demand patterns supported it, to do things like a limited stop route that ran via the Highway and Limehouse link to serve the City, Aldgate, Canary Wharf and then say into Ilford and out to Romford. Alternatively revamping route 8 and extending it through the Olympic Park and in to Stratford would give an additional corridor to the north of the 25 which could absorb some of the demand. However there's no guarantee that these services would run very quickly given peak hour congestion!
I can see TfL not being hugely supportive of either of these given Crossrail but the fundamental problem is one of price. People crowd the 25, 86 and 205 because they are *much* cheaper than rail or the tube. In this instance, given the demographics in Tower Hamlets, Newham and Redbridge, such a price differential is bonkers but there is no financial flexibility to rectify it. There's no scope to cut rail fares nor to offer cheapo fares on Crossrail and raising bus fares (to narrow the gap) would be politically impossible.
I fear there is no answer for the route 25 corridor because there is no imagination and determination to do the difficult things that are needed to make it work properly or to make a modal shift to rail a financially viable option.
|
|
|
Post by ThinLizzy on May 26, 2014 0:55:02 GMT
If you are going to try to devise a solution to the "problem" of the 25 you need to establish some of the history. Route 25 - an increase of over 11m pax jnys in 12 years. (135%) Route 86 - an increase of over 6m pax jnys in 12 years (over 100%) Route 205 - has helped mop up around 4m jnys after 2007 when it was extended eastwards Route 425 - harder to deal with but it carries over 2m pax a year but not all of that is between Stratford and Mile End. This scale of increase is virtually impossible to deal with with buses on non reserved roads. All TfL have done is throw more and more resource at parts of the corridor to try to deal with the level of demand. However it has had to botch the 25 at its Western end to deal with Oxford St shops, Holborn Circus roadworks and the never ending disaster that is roads in the City. How many times has Cornhill been closed for months in recent years? Whatever scope there was for bus priority between Bow and Stratford has gone because of the cycle superhighway (CSH) works. TfL themselves declared bus journey times would increase as a result of the most recent cycle works at Bow and in to Stratford. There are going to be more CSH works between Bow and the City which will slow the 25 and 205 even more. There is no point in throwing more buses into a corridor where average speeds are going to fall and there is no prospect of more bus priority. The ideal would be to have really excellent bus priority with traffic light priority, high quality stops and frequent services to raise capacity but London has no examples of such infrastructure because there's no willingness to lose the capacity for cars. Even the North Greenwich peninsula "busway" doesn't give buses priority at junctions! What TfL really need to find out is where on earth people are travelling to and from on the City - Romford corridor and how wide the catchment area is. There may actually be more merit, if the demand patterns supported it, to do things like a limited stop route that ran via the Highway and Limehouse link to serve the City, Aldgate, Canary Wharf and then say into Ilford and out to Romford. Alternatively revamping route 8 and extending it through the Olympic Park and in to Stratford would give an additional corridor to the north of the 25 which could absorb some of the demand. However there's no guarantee that these services would run very quickly given peak hour congestion! I can see TfL not being hugely supportive of either of these given Crossrail but the fundamental problem is one of price. People crowd the 25, 86 and 205 because they are *much* cheaper than rail or the tube. In this instance, given the demographics in Tower Hamlets, Newham and Redbridge, such a price differential is bonkers but there is no financial flexibility to rectify it. There's no scope to cut rail fares nor to offer cheapo fares on Crossrail and raising bus fares (to narrow the gap) would be politically impossible. I fear there is no answer for route the route 25 corridor because there is no imagination and determination to do the difficult things that are needed to make it work properly or to make a modal shift to rail a financially viable option. Can I give this a thousand likes? Even if you put high capacity tri-axles (double deecks this time!) on the 25 they'd still fill up
|
|
|
Post by VPL630 on May 26, 2014 7:13:04 GMT
If you are going to try to devise a solution to the "problem" of the 25 you need to establish some of the history. Route 25 - an increase of over 11m pax jnys in 12 years. (135%) Route 86 - an increase of over 6m pax jnys in 12 years (over 100%) Route 205 - has helped mop up around 4m jnys after 2007 when it was extended eastwards Route 425 - harder to deal with but it carries over 2m pax a year but not all of that is between Stratford and Mile End. This scale of increase is virtually impossible to deal with with buses on non reserved roads. All TfL have done is throw more and more resource at parts of the corridor to try to deal with the level of demand. However it has had to botch the 25 at its Western end to deal with Oxford St shops, Holborn Circus roadworks and the never ending disaster that is roads in the City. How many times has Cornhill been closed for months in recent years? Whatever scope there was for bus priority between Bow and Stratford has gone because of the cycle superhighway (CSH) works. TfL themselves declared bus journey times would increase as a result of the most recent cycle works at Bow and in to Stratford. There are going to be more CSH works between Bow and the City which will slow the 25 and 205 even more. There is no point in throwing more buses into a corridor where average speeds are going to fall and there is no prospect of more bus priority. The ideal would be to have really excellent bus priority with traffic light priority, high quality stops and frequent services to raise capacity but London has no examples of such infrastructure because there's no willingness to lose the capacity for cars. Even the North Greenwich peninsula "busway" doesn't give buses priority at junctions! What TfL really need to find out is where on earth people are travelling to and from on the City - Romford corridor and how wide the catchment area is. There may actually be more merit, if the demand patterns supported it, to do things like a limited stop route that ran via the Highway and Limehouse link to serve the City, Aldgate, Canary Wharf and then say into Ilford and out to Romford. Alternatively revamping route 8 and extending it through the Olympic Park and in to Stratford would give an additional corridor to the north of the 25 which could absorb some of the demand. However there's no guarantee that these services would run very quickly given peak hour congestion! I can see TfL not being hugely supportive of either of these given Crossrail but the fundamental problem is one of price. People crowd the 25, 86 and 205 because they are *much* cheaper than rail or the tube. In this instance, given the demographics in Tower Hamlets, Newham and Redbridge, such a price differential is bonkers but there is no financial flexibility to rectify it. There's no scope to cut rail fares nor to offer cheapo fares on Crossrail and raising bus fares (to narrow the gap) would be politically impossible. I fear there is no answer for route the route 25 corridor because there is no imagination and determination to do the difficult things that are needed to make it work properly or to make a modal shift to rail a financially viable option. Can I give this a thousand likes? Even if you put high capacity tri-axles (double deecks this time!) on the 25 they'd still fill up But it would help, I agree with everything in this post
|
|
|
Post by TA1 on May 26, 2014 7:54:57 GMT
If you are going to try to devise a solution to the "problem" of the 25 you need to establish some of the history. Route 25 - an increase of over 11m pax jnys in 12 years. (135%) Route 86 - an increase of over 6m pax jnys in 12 years (over 100%) Route 205 - has helped mop up around 4m jnys after 2007 when it was extended eastwards Route 425 - harder to deal with but it carries over 2m pax a year but not all of that is between Stratford and Mile End. This scale of increase is virtually impossible to deal with with buses on non reserved roads. All TfL have done is throw more and more resource at parts of the corridor to try to deal with the level of demand. However it has had to botch the 25 at its Western end to deal with Oxford St shops, Holborn Circus roadworks and the never ending disaster that is roads in the City. How many times has Cornhill been closed for months in recent years? Whatever scope there was for bus priority between Bow and Stratford has gone because of the cycle superhighway (CSH) works. TfL themselves declared bus journey times would increase as a result of the most recent cycle works at Bow and in to Stratford. There are going to be more CSH works between Bow and the City which will slow the 25 and 205 even more. There is no point in throwing more buses into a corridor where average speeds are going to fall and there is no prospect of more bus priority. The ideal would be to have really excellent bus priority with traffic light priority, high quality stops and frequent services to raise capacity but London has no examples of such infrastructure because there's no willingness to lose the capacity for cars. Even the North Greenwich peninsula "busway" doesn't give buses priority at junctions! What TfL really need to find out is where on earth people are travelling to and from on the City - Romford corridor and how wide the catchment area is. There may actually be more merit, if the demand patterns supported it, to do things like a limited stop route that ran via the Highway and Limehouse link to serve the City, Aldgate, Canary Wharf and then say into Ilford and out to Romford. Alternatively revamping route 8 and extending it through the Olympic Park and in to Stratford would give an additional corridor to the north of the 25 which could absorb some of the demand. However there's no guarantee that these services would run very quickly given peak hour congestion! I can see TfL not being hugely supportive of either of these given Crossrail but the fundamental problem is one of price. People crowd the 25, 86 and 205 because they are *much* cheaper than rail or the tube. In this instance, given the demographics in Tower Hamlets, Newham and Redbridge, such a price differential is bonkers but there is no financial flexibility to rectify it. There's no scope to cut rail fares nor to offer cheapo fares on Crossrail and raising bus fares (to narrow the gap) would be politically impossible. I fear there is no answer for route the route 25 corridor because there is no imagination and determination to do the difficult things that are needed to make it work properly or to make a modal shift to rail a financially viable option. I feel the main focus point is the demographic, as rightly mentioned even if crossrail offers marginally cheaper travel, the option to travel by local demographics will still potentially decline, with the cost of living increasing I feel that many more passengers will continue to do through journeys from the east end onwards. I feel potentially a solution could be providing the existing service but a limited stop service, that operates in both peaks similar to the X68 except it operates in both directions. The route would be tri-axle operated, Serving all stops within Ilford town centre, manor park/high street north, Forest Gate, Princess Alice, Stratford, Bow Road, Mile End, Stepney Green Stations, Whitechapel station, Aldgate, Bank, Saint Pauls, Holborn Circus, Holborn all stops to Oxford Circus; albeit that suggestion a fantasy,obviously TFL must be aware of the passenger numbers et al, but retain some form of overall scepticism whether to provide further investment over the A11/A118 corridor with Crossrail imminent, but also retain a contingency plan if passenger numbers on transfer do not decrease substantially. In my opinion I feel that in the long term the 25 may yet still receive a frequency increase or two.
|
|
|
Post by Eastlondoner62 on May 26, 2014 9:45:00 GMT
I agree with all that as well, But my be they should try out extending another route into East London from Central London, The 115 could be extended both ways, one end to Barking and another to Bank. Like stated earlier given how much the 8 has been chopped in the West it could be extended to Stratford.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 26, 2014 10:40:15 GMT
I don,t know why people keep saying change the operators, 25 is run fine at rush hour every major route in London struggles with traffic overcrowding having worked for First and TT and driven the 25 the route was run fine, who else could run it Stagecoach it would not make any difference. Go Ahead no way having recently joined Go ahead from TT to be closer to home believe me TT is a much better company then Go ahead I am very diss pointed to have joined Go ahead so tell me who could run it better arriva is even worse
|
|
|
Post by romfordbuses on May 26, 2014 11:17:03 GMT
Every operator would struggle to run the 25, It's just one of those things.
|
|