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Post by uakari on Mar 30, 2023 19:33:32 GMT
Funny how they just 'forgot' about unsuspending these routes, something that could have actually reduced reliance on cars. The weekend services in general were for the night-time economy so doubt many of them would be driving after a drink or two. Most probably use Uber or alternative night services that run nearby. There aren't 'alternative night services that run nearby' those routes, that was the point of them. |
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Post by WH241 on Mar 30, 2023 19:38:36 GMT
The weekend services in general were for the night-time economy so doubt many of them would be driving after a drink or two. Most probably use Uber or alternative night services that run nearby. There aren't 'alternative night services that run nearby' those routes, that was the point of them. Well people can get close (Ish) then make alternative arrangements. It is totally unrealistic to provide a service to everywhere and where services have been provided there were poorly used and withdrawn. It's not like the N158,N123 and N145 for example went to the middle of nowhere. |
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Post by LondonNorthern on Mar 30, 2023 19:44:32 GMT
There aren't 'alternative night services that run nearby' those routes, that was the point of them. Well people can close (Ish) then make alternative arrangements. It is totally unrealistic to provide a service to everywhere and where services have been provided there were poorly used and withdrawn. It's not like the N158,N123 and N145 for example went to the middle of nowhere. Exactly and its no secret that even for daytime routes that their quietest point of the day regarding custom was late at night. Maybe I am being slightly blunt here but I feel the expectation for the majority of daytime services in London to run from 5am to midnight is becoming increasingly unrealistic nowadays in a time where minicabs have stolen most custom in the early hours of the morning and late hours of the night. |
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Post by uakari on Mar 30, 2023 19:47:10 GMT
There aren't 'alternative night services that run nearby' those routes, that was the point of them. Well people can close (Ish) then make alternative arrangements. It is totally unrealistic to provide a service to everywhere and where services have been provided there were poorly used and withdrawn. It's not like the N158,N123 and N145 for example went to the middle of nowhere. Only one of them has been officially withdrawn though. No consultation on the others because they probably think that would be another death knell for Sadiq. So they're still in a state of suspension, not withdrawn. |
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Post by Eastlondoner62 on Mar 30, 2023 19:47:35 GMT
There aren't 'alternative night services that run nearby' those routes, that was the point of them. Well people can close (Ish) then make alternative arrangements. It is totally unrealistic to provide a service to everywhere and where services have been provided there were poorly used and withdrawn. It's not like the N158,N123 and N145 for example went to the middle of nowhere. The 145 I think is interesting to look at. It's a night bus service in an area that's previously never had one, and through a massive black hole in Barking and Dagenham. There are two ways to look at it. 1. The intention was probably to connect the people of Dagenham to the Central Line. Big issue being who on earth would go all the way to Leytonstone for that. Would that have even crossed their mind? So as a result any influence by the Central Line would have only stretched along the northern half of the route. The 238 deals with the rest of Barking and the N15 the northern part of Dagenham alongside Barking. So very quickly the 145 loses a lot of use. 2. Anyone that's now gained a new night service along the route had spent years and years without one. It only operating 2 days a week was no incentive to start using it, people had got used to using Ubers and cars and had no reason to use a bus all the way to Leytonstone. If it operated 7 days a week, it will probably start to gather some usage to interchange with the N15 at Barking Bus Garage, and the N25 at Ilford. The N145 was introduced at the wrong time, a night District line should have been its introduction. But the trickle of plans that keep coming through suggest a night District will only make it to Barking anyway, so maybe longer term an N62, N368 or N287 is what will be looked at to provide the rest of the borough with the link, and not the 145. |
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Post by uakari on Mar 30, 2023 19:52:52 GMT
Funny how they just 'forgot' about unsuspending these routes, something that could have actually reduced reliance on cars. The weekend services in general were for the night-time economy so doubt many of them would be driving after a drink or two. Most probably use Uber or alternative night services that run nearby. Which TfL make money off. So it's not about reducing private vehicle usage. |
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Post by VMH2537 on Mar 30, 2023 20:00:52 GMT
Night routes are critical if we are to help people get from one place to another, especially on weekends. One of the worst acts we should do is say they are "useless and a waste of money". If we are to support alternative use of cars, why should we say they are not worth it?
From my view, I think it's the low half-hourly frequency the services ran as to why the usage was very low. Not all users are going to deal with the hassle and consulting with timetables when they can argue driving or getting a taxi is more convenient to travel. The data already shows the night services that ran over 20 minutes shown their usage is much higher and can bring the provision of an adequate service.
Sadly planning organisations like TfL often overlook why usage is low and ends up doing the easiest solution of cutting services rather than exploring measures for improvements.
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Post by uakari on Mar 30, 2023 20:01:29 GMT
Well people can close (Ish) then make alternative arrangements. It is totally unrealistic to provide a service to everywhere and where services have been provided there were poorly used and withdrawn. It's not like the N158,N123 and N145 for example went to the middle of nowhere. The 145 I think is interesting to look at. It's a night bus service in an area that's previously never had one, and through a massive black hole in Barking and Dagenham. There are two ways to look at it. 1. The intention was probably to connect the people of Dagenham to the Central Line. Big issue being who on earth would go all the way to Leytonstone for that. Would that have even crossed their mind? So as a result any influence by the Central Line would have only stretched along the northern half of the route. The 238 deals with the rest of Barking and the N15 the northern part of Dagenham alongside Barking. So very quickly the 145 loses a lot of use. 2. Anyone that's now gained a new night service along the route had spent years and years without one. It only operating 2 days a week was no incentive to start using it, people had got used to using Ubers and cars and had no reason to use a bus all the way to Leytonstone. If it operated 7 days a week, it will probably start to gather some usage to interchange with the N15 at Barking Bus Garage, and the N25 at Ilford. The N145 was introduced at the wrong time, a night District line should have been its introduction. But the trickle of plans that keep coming through suggest a night District will only make it to Barking anyway, so maybe longer term an N62, N368 or N287 is what will be looked at to provide the rest of the borough with the link, and not the 145. First part of point 2 is true for this new N271 to North Finchley but somehow that was introduced despite the other ones still being suspended. |
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Post by abellion on Mar 30, 2023 20:10:23 GMT
Night routes are critical if we are to help people get from one place to another, especially on weekends. One of the worst acts we should do is say they are "useless and a waste of money". If we are to support alternative use of cars, why should we say they are not worth it? From my view, I think it's the low half-hourly frequency the services ran as to why the usage was very low. Not all users are going to deal with the hassle and consulting with timetables when they can argue driving or getting a taxi is more convenient to travel. The data already shows the night services that ran over 20 minutes shown their usage is much higher and can bring the provision of an adequate service. Sadly planning organisations like TfL often overlook why usage is low and ends up doing the easiest solution of cutting services rather than exploring measures for improvements. You could easily argue the other way though. As nice as it would be to drive down car usage it’s not like there’s tons of demand to be found at 2am and it is incredibly wasteful to run night buses which are picking up nowhere near enough to be cost neutral. More frequency would entice more usage but night buses are already costing far more money than they make up and there are too many areas or orbital links that can’t be covered realistically by buses. Increasing frequencies can proportionally increase the costs of running night buses and make it even harder for them to make some sort of profit or neutrality, and who’s to say any demand will appear if, for example, TfL increase a terribly low performer like the 213N, 365N or 472N. |
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Post by LondonNorthern on Mar 30, 2023 21:10:24 GMT
Night routes are critical if we are to help people get from one place to another, especially on weekends. One of the worst acts we should do is say they are "useless and a waste of money". If we are to support alternative use of cars, why should we say they are not worth it? From my view, I think it's the low half-hourly frequency the services ran as to why the usage was very low. Not all users are going to deal with the hassle and consulting with timetables when they can argue driving or getting a taxi is more convenient to travel. The data already shows the night services that ran over 20 minutes shown their usage is much higher and can bring the provision of an adequate service. Sadly planning organisations like TfL often overlook why usage is low and ends up doing the easiest solution of cutting services rather than exploring measures for improvements. You could easily argue the other way though. As nice as it would be to drive down car usage it’s not like there’s tons of demand to be found at 2am and it is incredibly wasteful to run night buses which are picking up nowhere near enough to be cost neutral. More frequency would entice more usage but night buses are already costing far more money than they make up and there are too many areas or orbital links that can’t be covered realistically by buses. Increasing frequencies can proportionally increase the costs of running night buses and make it even harder for them to make some sort of profit or neutrality, and who’s to say any demand will appear if, for example, TfL increase a terribly low performer like the 213N, 365N or 472N. What would you suggest increasing them to? How busy is the 213 which runs on a 12 minute headway until midnight already? |
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Post by londonbuses on Mar 30, 2023 21:21:48 GMT
I think the issue with night buses is that very few people choose to use them because of their low frequencies, but the low passenger numbers then mean TfL won't increase the frequencies.
For example, I wouldn't choose to stand for 25 minutes at 3am waiting for a bus, when I could get an Uber and probably be home before the bus even arrives, whereas if the bus was running every 8 or 10 minutes, I would probably choose to use the bus.
Unless TfL were given tonnes of money to provide a revolutionary night bus network with similar frequencies to daytime, this will never change and the usage of night buses is slowly going to decline.
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Post by WH241 on Mar 30, 2023 21:26:49 GMT
I think the issue with night buses is that very few people choose to use them because of their low frequencies, but the low passenger numbers then mean TfL won't increase the frequencies. For example, I wouldn't choose to stand for 25 minutes at 3am waiting for a bus, when I could get an Uber and probably be home before the bus even arrives, whereas if the bus was running every 10 or 12 minutes, I would probably choose to use the bus. Unless TfL were given tonnes of money to provide a revolutionary night bus network with similar frequencies to daytime, this will never change and the usage of night buses is slowly going to decline. it’s totally unrealistic to run night buses every 10 mins unless on busy corridors like the N15 or N25. Sorry to be blunt but think people need to be realistic and appreciate TfL is still pretty broke. The night network we have is pretty decent alongside the night tube. |
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Post by londonbuses on Mar 30, 2023 21:35:44 GMT
I think the issue with night buses is that very few people choose to use them because of their low frequencies, but the low passenger numbers then mean TfL won't increase the frequencies. For example, I wouldn't choose to stand for 25 minutes at 3am waiting for a bus, when I could get an Uber and probably be home before the bus even arrives, whereas if the bus was running every 10 or 12 minutes, I would probably choose to use the bus. Unless TfL were given tonnes of money to provide a revolutionary night bus network with similar frequencies to daytime, this will never change and the usage of night buses is slowly going to decline. it’s totally unrealistic to run night buses every 10 mins unless on busy corridors like the N15 or N25. Sorry to be blunt but think people need to be realistic and appreciate TfL is still pretty broke. The night network we have is pretty decent alongside the night tube. I agree but my point is that in its current state, night bus usage is only going to decrease. Only 10 years ago, getting a taxi involved calling a private hire company, who may not have any drivers available, or looking for a black cab, which may not have been easy if not near a train station or large venue. Nowadays you can order an Uber by pressing a few buttons on your phone and you only have to go outside when it arrives. Additionally the cost of living means less people will choose to go to clubs and throw away loads of money on drinks, so one of the targeted groups of night buses will begin to decrease. |
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Post by capitalomnibus on Mar 30, 2023 21:44:59 GMT
Might be beneficial for the votes but does TfL have the money? Did these services cover their running costs? I imagine some probably lost money? Not a fan of Uber at all but think it has a places for things like late nights out. You have to remember that night trips usually follow an earlier trip in the opposite journey so the revenue gain overall is worthwhile. Not necessarily, as it would mean splitting day duties of an equivalent route. This costs money, then the enhanced night bus pay for night bus drivers (night fares has no enhancement since 2001) Some routes just do not have the custom. |
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Post by cl54 on Mar 31, 2023 3:43:15 GMT
You have to remember that night trips usually follow an earlier trip in the opposite journey so the revenue gain overall is worthwhile. Not necessarily, as it would mean splitting day duties of an equivalent route. This costs money, then the enhanced night bus pay for night bus drivers (night fares has no enhancement since 2001) Some routes just do not have the custom. I did not say the earlier journey had to be on the same route. |
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