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Post by greenboy on Mar 31, 2023 7:35:45 GMT
Night routes are critical if we are to help people get from one place to another, especially on weekends. One of the worst acts we should do is say they are "useless and a waste of money". If we are to support alternative use of cars, why should we say they are not worth it? From my view, I think it's the low half-hourly frequency the services ran as to why the usage was very low. Not all users are going to deal with the hassle and consulting with timetables when they can argue driving or getting a taxi is more convenient to travel. The data already shows the night services that ran over 20 minutes shown their usage is much higher and can bring the provision of an adequate service. Sadly planning organisations like TfL often overlook why usage is low and ends up doing the easiest solution of cutting services rather than exploring measures for improvements. Reality is that you'll be lucky to get more than a half hourly service on most night routes and it's hardly surprising that data shows that services with a higher frequency get more usage, that's why they have a higher frequency in the first place. |
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Post by uakari on Mar 31, 2023 8:09:07 GMT
Night routes are critical if we are to help people get from one place to another, especially on weekends. One of the worst acts we should do is say they are "useless and a waste of money". If we are to support alternative use of cars, why should we say they are not worth it? From my view, I think it's the low half-hourly frequency the services ran as to why the usage was very low. Not all users are going to deal with the hassle and consulting with timetables when they can argue driving or getting a taxi is more convenient to travel. The data already shows the night services that ran over 20 minutes shown their usage is much higher and can bring the provision of an adequate service. Sadly planning organisations like TfL often overlook why usage is low and ends up doing the easiest solution of cutting services rather than exploring measures for improvements. Reality is that you'll be lucky to get more than a half hourly service on most night routes and it's hardly surprising that data shows that services with a higher frequency get more usage, that's why they have a higher frequency in the first place. Chicken and egg |
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Post by greenboy on Mar 31, 2023 8:31:45 GMT
Reality is that you'll be lucky to get more than a half hourly service on most night routes and it's hardly surprising that data shows that services with a higher frequency get more usage, that's why they have a higher frequency in the first place. Chicken and egg Or being careful what you wish for, any review of surburban night routes is more likely to see them withdrawn completely than increased with just radial routes from Central London remaining, clearly Uber is preferable for many people nowadays. |
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Post by southlondonbus on Mar 31, 2023 9:04:31 GMT
Reality is that you'll be lucky to get more than a half hourly service on most night routes and it's hardly surprising that data shows that services with a higher frequency get more usage, that's why they have a higher frequency in the first place. Chicken and egg Yes and no. Routes like the N15, N29 run frequently and carry large loads mainly due to demographics in the areas served and the work people do that requires travelling by night bus. In reality in most areas there simply will be no demand even at a 10 mins freq as 85+% of people are asleep between 12 and 6am. |
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Post by enviroPB on Mar 31, 2023 10:34:13 GMT
Yes and no. Routes like the N15, N29 run frequently and carry large loads mainly due to demographics in the areas served and the work people do that requires travelling by night bus. In reality in most areas there simply will be no demand even at a 10 mins freq as 85+% of people are asleep between 12 and 6am. The criterion of demographics (which I interpret to be more socioeconomic) has to be revisited. Low income workers rely on night buses but to everyone else, it's a cheaper alternative that's welcome if it is convenient. Those who have previously cabbed it to east London after a night out are now being enticed by the N15 and its attractive frequency. These are people who aren't reliant on the night bus network but opt for it, despite having the money and incentive to use other means of travel. Why book a cab after emerging from the Underground station when the night bus that takes you home has just pulled up? Demographics pretty much has nothing to do with it when you have routes like the N15, N18, N25, N29 and N207 with high frequencies ferrying people at night to major town centres. Parking gentrification to one side, those who are more affluent tend to live within inner London and use the night bus quite religiously, as the amalgamation of different night routes coming into the centre is at play. I'm not saying every area needs to be like that but if the service is attractive enough, anyone will use it. It's when night buses aren't attractive, that's when only those who rely on it will use it and as other members have rightly said, an unattractive network does nothing for passenger growth. |
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Post by northlondon83 on Mar 31, 2023 13:25:02 GMT
Yes and no. Routes like the N15, N29 run frequently and carry large loads mainly due to demographics in the areas served and the work people do that requires travelling by night bus. In reality in most areas there simply will be no demand even at a 10 mins freq as 85+% of people are asleep between 12 and 6am. The criterion of demographics (which I interpret to be more socioeconomic) has to be revisited. Low income workers rely on night buses but to everyone else, it's a cheaper alternative that's welcome if it is convenient. Those who have previously cabbed it to east London after a night out are now being enticed by the N15 and its attractive frequency. These are people who aren't reliant on the night bus network but opt for it, despite having the money and incentive to use other means of travel. Why book a cab after emerging from the Underground station when the night bus that takes you home has just pulled up? Demographics pretty much has nothing to do with it when you have routes like the N15, N18, N25, N29 and N207 with high frequencies ferrying people at night to major town centres. Parking gentrification to one side, those who are more affluent tend to live within inner London and use the night bus quite religiously, as the amalgamation of different night routes coming into the centre is at play. I'm not saying every area needs to be like that but if the service is attractive enough, anyone will use it. It's when night buses aren't attractive, that's when only those who rely on it will use it and as other members have rightly said, an unattractive network does nothing for passenger growth. Well its unattractive when large parts of London don't have a night bus and night workers will have to take a cab. Like the northern half of Hillingdon borough has no night bus routes at all. Not even one to link to a connecting central London night route. |
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Post by southlondon413 on Mar 31, 2023 13:34:34 GMT
The criterion of demographics (which I interpret to be more socioeconomic) has to be revisited. Low income workers rely on night buses but to everyone else, it's a cheaper alternative that's welcome if it is convenient. Those who have previously cabbed it to east London after a night out are now being enticed by the N15 and its attractive frequency. These are people who aren't reliant on the night bus network but opt for it, despite having the money and incentive to use other means of travel. Why book a cab after emerging from the Underground station when the night bus that takes you home has just pulled up? Demographics pretty much has nothing to do with it when you have routes like the N15, N18, N25, N29 and N207 with high frequencies ferrying people at night to major town centres. Parking gentrification to one side, those who are more affluent tend to live within inner London and use the night bus quite religiously, as the amalgamation of different night routes coming into the centre is at play. I'm not saying every area needs to be like that but if the service is attractive enough, anyone will use it. It's when night buses aren't attractive, that's when only those who rely on it will use it and as other members have rightly said, an unattractive network does nothing for passenger growth. Well it’s unattractive when large parts of London don't have a night bus and night workers will have to take a cab. Like the northern half of Hillingdon borough has no night bus routes at all. Not even one to link to a connecting central London night route. But then you have to consider the demographic for the northern half of Hillingdon. Is it mostly families, are there a lot of older professionals, are there a lot of night based businesses? These are all questions to consider. Taking them part of the way to a centralised location is better than nothing. |
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Post by northlondon83 on Mar 31, 2023 13:58:25 GMT
Well it’s unattractive when large parts of London don't have a night bus and night workers will have to take a cab. Like the northern half of Hillingdon borough has no night bus routes at all. Not even one to link to a connecting central London night route. But then you have to consider the demographic for the northern half of Hillingdon. Is it mostly families, are there a lot of older professionals, are there a lot of night based businesses? These are all questions to consider. Taking them part of the way to a centralised location is better than nothing. There might be people who commute into central London who don't have use of a car, and do night shifts. But I'd say in general there wouldn't be much demand for a night route but it's inconvenient for those who need it. At the very least the N114 should come back and be extended to Uxbridge or an N278 would be a simpler cross Hillingdon link at night |
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Post by Eastlondoner62 on Mar 31, 2023 14:06:09 GMT
But then you have to consider the demographic for the northern half of Hillingdon. Is it mostly families, are there a lot of older professionals, are there a lot of night based businesses? These are all questions to consider. Taking them part of the way to a centralised location is better than nothing. There might be people who commute into central London who don't have use of a car, and do night shifts. But I'd say in general there wouldn't be much demand for a night route but it's inconvenient for those who need it. At the very least the N114 should come back and be extended to Uxbridge or an N278 would be a simpler cross Hillingdon link at night Interesting you bring up the N114, figures posted earlier on in this thread make for worse reading than the N145. Night buses can no doubt be beneficial, but only when they are ready to use as and when they're needed, like the N8, N25, N29 and N15 all are. But when you start going into territories where buses are every half an hour is when you're going to start losing custom. |
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Post by southlondonbus on Mar 31, 2023 14:06:49 GMT
But then you have to consider the demographic for the northern half of Hillingdon. Is it mostly families, are there a lot of older professionals, are there a lot of night based businesses? These are all questions to consider. Taking them part of the way to a centralised location is better than nothing. There might be people who commute into central London who don't have use of a car, and do night shifts. But I'd say in general there wouldn't be much demand for a night route but it's inconvenient for those who need it. At the very least the N114 should come back and be extended to Uxbridge or an N278 would be a simpler cross Hillingdon link at night Night shifts generally are probably between 10pm and 5 to 6am. Again would be there so much demand for night shift workers. Even 7am starters are accommodated by most routes starting between 5 and 5.30am. |
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Post by WH241 on Mar 31, 2023 14:15:05 GMT
But then you have to consider the demographic for the northern half of Hillingdon. Is it mostly families, are there a lot of older professionals, are there a lot of night based businesses? These are all questions to consider. Taking them part of the way to a centralised location is better than nothing. There might be people who commute into central London who don't have use of a car, and do night shifts. But I'd say in general there wouldn't be much demand for a night route but it's inconvenient for those who need it. At the very least the N114 should come back and be extended to Uxbridge or an N278 would be a simpler cross Hillingdon link at night Weekend night routes are not much help for commuters on the other nights. Controversial I know but the weekend routes were a nice luxury but probably something we can live without. As I said previously we have the night tube now and more Ubers than anything so people can get around much easier than previously at night. |
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Post by northlondon83 on Mar 31, 2023 14:17:03 GMT
There might be people who commute into central London who don't have use of a car, and do night shifts. But I'd say in general there wouldn't be much demand for a night route but it's inconvenient for those who need it. At the very least the N114 should come back and be extended to Uxbridge or an N278 would be a simpler cross Hillingdon link at night Night shifts generally are probably between 10pm and 5 to 6am. Again would be there so much demand for night shift workers. Even 7am starters are accommodated by most routes starting between 5 and 5.30am. Some people work late evenings running until like 1 or 2am or start earlier than 6am where it would be impossible to commute to work by public transport if there is no night bus. As for whether there would be significant demand, possibly not, but there's going to be people who will be left disadvantaged if they can't get home by public transport at night. |
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Post by northlondon83 on Mar 31, 2023 14:17:46 GMT
There might be people who commute into central London who don't have use of a car, and do night shifts. But I'd say in general there wouldn't be much demand for a night route but it's inconvenient for those who need it. At the very least the N114 should come back and be extended to Uxbridge or an N278 would be a simpler cross Hillingdon link at night Weekend night routes are not much help for commuters on the other nights. Controversial I know but the weekend routes were a nice luxury but probably something we can live without. As I said previously we have the night tube now and more Ubers than anything so people can get around much easier than previously at night. Ubers are expensive and some people cannot afford to take ubers on a regular basis, unless their company pays for their ubers |
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Post by southlondonbus on Mar 31, 2023 14:27:11 GMT
Night shifts generally are probably between 10pm and 5 to 6am. Again would be there so much demand for night shift workers. Even 7am starters are accommodated by most routes starting between 5 and 5.30am. Some people work late evenings running until like 1 or 2am or start earlier than 6am where it would be impossible to commute to work by public transport if there is no night bus. As for whether there would be significant demand, possibly not, but there's going to be people who will be left disadvantaged if they can't get home by public transport at night. Some people but no disrespect but does that really justify a 30 mins DD night service. I'm sorry if it sounds harsh but not everyone can be catered for. |
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Post by WH241 on Mar 31, 2023 14:29:42 GMT
Weekend night routes are not much help for commuters on the other nights. Controversial I know but the weekend routes were a nice luxury but probably something we can live without. As I said previously we have the night tube now and more Ubers than anything so people can get around much easier than previously at night. Ubers are expensive and some people cannot afford to take ubers on a regular basis, unless their company pays for their ubers Right but what did these people do before 2016 when weekend services started? People can’t expect services to every part of London 247. |
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