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Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2017 16:20:46 GMT
We can go over the legal niceties forever more but in the cold light of day if a passenger with a buggy, rightly or wrongly, is unable or unwilling to fold it up or get off what can a driver do? Here's a smorgasbord from the Supreme Court judgments. There it is. Notices must make clear that disabled people have absolute priority access to the wheelchair space. So should company policy and conditions of carriage. Non-disabled people intending to use the wheelchair space must be told that they must use foldable buggies if they wish to get on with it now. Drivers are required to state in no uncertain terms that non-disabled people are required to give the space up. Then if necessary the driver should refuse to move until they do - offering assistance to the person to collapse their buggy. That is undoubtedly unacceptable to many bus drivers, but there you go.
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Post by sid on Feb 24, 2017 16:24:58 GMT
We can go over the legal niceties forever more but in the cold light of day if a passenger with a buggy, rightly or wrongly, is unable or unwilling to fold it up or get off what can a driver do? Here's a smorgasbord from the Supreme Court judgments. There it is. Notices must make clear that disabled people have absolute priority access to the wheelchair space. So should company policy and conditions of carriage. Non-disabled people intending to use the wheelchair space must be told that they must use foldable buggies if they wish to get on with it now. Drivers are required to state in no uncertain terms that non-disabled people are required to give the space up. Then if necessary the driver should refuse to move until they do - offering assistance to the person to collapse their buggy. That is undoubtedly unacceptable to many bus drivers, but there you go. Meanwhile in the real world ! I really cannot see too many drivers getting out of their cab and assisting with the folding of a buggy, something most men (myself included!) are notoriously hopeless at anyway. I think we're just going to have to accept it is first come first served?
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Post by nickfreckle on Feb 24, 2017 17:14:23 GMT
Indeed 'meanwhile in the real world'. So we inconvenience a bus load of passengers by refusing to move, and whilst they are getting more grumpy because of the dispute, we have to get out of our cabs to offer assistance to fold the buggy. Yeah, righty-ho. There's a reason cabs have assault screens. I'll be buggered if I'm going to get out and dive in to a likely hostile situation like that.
It may be acceptable with the different clientele you find in the regions, but London? No chance.
Whilst the gentleman has my utmost respect for coming on here and giving his side, he needs to wake up and smell the coffee and realise that driver's hands are tied in a lot of occasions. Thankfully, in nine times out of ten occasions when the wheelchair bay has been full with more than one buggy, the wheelchair users have been as good as gold and have been prepared to wait for the next one with room.
I still feel very uncomfortable he is still advocating drivers be prosecuted should they not get the bay cleared. If that does start happening on a regular basis, he's going to have a job finding a bus period, as I'm sure there will be many drivers leaving the industry if there are regular prosecutions and fines. There will be nobody to drive them.
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Post by ServerKing on Feb 24, 2017 17:40:04 GMT
Indeed 'meanwhile in the real world'. So we inconvenience a bus load of passengers by refusing to move, and whilst they are getting more grumpy because of the dispute, we have to get out of our cabs to offer assistance to fold the buggy. Yeah, righty-ho. There's a reason cabs have assault screens. I'll be buggered if I'm going to get out and dive in to a likely hostile situation like that. It may be acceptable with the different clientele you find in the regions, but London? No chance. Whilst the gentleman has my utmost respect for coming on here and giving his side, he needs to wake up and smell the coffee and realise that driver's hands are tied in a lot of occasions. Thankfully, in nine times out of ten occasions when the wheelchair bay has been full with more than one buggy, the wheelchair users have been as good as gold and have been prepared to wait for the next one with room. I still feel very uncomfortable he is still advocating drivers be prosecuted should they not get the bay cleared. If that does start happening on a regular basis, he's going to have a job finding a bus period, as I'm sure there will be many drivers leaving the industry if there are regular prosecutions and fines. There will be nobody to drive them. Too late for that, I'm afraid... Seen on a 318 this evening
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Post by rambo on Feb 24, 2017 18:13:37 GMT
Sadly, none of that is LAW.
Until a judge has the b*llocks to say, buggies MUST be folded by law, the will carry on causing problems.
One way sorting it would be to not let anyone use the wheelchair area at all. Maybe a metal arm that stays down blocking access until ramp is deployed.
Must admit though, I cannot understand why companies don't make it part of terms of carriage that a buggy MUST be folded if the wheelchair space is needed. Although once buggy mum is in the wheelchair area, it would be bloody hard work to remove her.
It is just another example of something not being 'nipped in the bud' to start with.
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Post by vjaska on Feb 24, 2017 18:16:22 GMT
Indeed 'meanwhile in the real world'. So we inconvenience a bus load of passengers by refusing to move, and whilst they are getting more grumpy because of the dispute. Slightly taking it away from the topic but is this not still happen when it comes to people trying to board without paying? The one thing I do agree with you on is I wouldn't expect drivers to get out of the cab in London - I'm sure all of us have seen how some people behave in London so it's certainly understandable for their safety why yourself and others wouldn't get out - I certainly wouldn't.
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Post by vjaska on Feb 24, 2017 18:17:42 GMT
Sadly, none of that is LAW. Until a judge has the b*llocks to say, buggies MUST be folded by law, the will carry on causing problems. One way sorting it would be to not let anyone use the wheelchair area at all. Maybe a metal arm that stays down blocking access until ramp is deployed. Must admit though, I cannot understand why companies don't make it part of terms of carriage that a buggy MUST be folded if the wheelchair space is needed. Although once buggy mum is in the wheelchair area, it would be bloody hard work to remove her. It is just another example of something not being 'nipped in the bud' to start with. You summed it up perfectly.
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Post by rambo on Feb 24, 2017 18:35:00 GMT
@kingqueen,
I can tell you now, we as drivers would love a LAW making buggy mum fold the buggies.
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Post by snoggle on Feb 24, 2017 23:25:15 GMT
@kingqueen, I can tell you now, we as drivers would love a LAW making buggy mum fold the buggies. Please do NOT give him any more ideas. You must have worked out by now that he will not change his position regardless of the impact. I await the police being called to arrest a bus driver because some minute aspect of the judgement has not been followed. After all it's the *criminal* law.
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Post by redbus on Feb 24, 2017 23:50:38 GMT
Very interesting to hear from the claimant. I think as matters stand, things are somewhat unsatisfactory all round, from wheelchair users to buggy mom to bus driver. I am not and never have been a bus driver, but those who do the job have enough to contend with, be it driving, dealing other road users, dealing with passengers etc and are grossly underpaid for doing what I see as a difficult job. I don't think adding the role of policeman, and potentially prosecuting them is the best way forward. There needs to be clear guidance from bus companies, or in the case of London, TfL, as so what is permissible and expected under the Law.
Clearly wheelchair users should have priority, and indeed having been a buggy dad myself, I have folded my pushchair to allow space for a wheelchair. The line as to what to do when buggy mom won't fold her pushchair is not easy, if it were I think the judgement may have been different. Particularly important is education (for example better publicity) to set expectations that buggy mom should fold their pushchair to let a wheelchair passenger on. There is now some publicity, but much more is required. It is reasonable to expect the driver to tell buggy mom to fold her pushchair, but what if she doesn't. How many times must the driver tell buggy mom. If the driver stops the bus, how long for, particularly as doing that is a form of collective punishment not just against the passengers on the bus, but also those waiting ahead. What about double buggies or those that do not fold? Do bus companies ban non folding pushchairs, and if so what are parents who already have them supposed to do.
There needs to be much more understanding all round, particularly for wheelchair passengers and education is the best way to achieve that.
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Post by londonbusboy on Feb 25, 2017 7:38:54 GMT
Very interesting to hear from the claimant. I think as matters stand, things are somewhat unsatisfactory all round, from wheelchair users to buggy mom to bus driver. I am not and never have been a bus driver, but those who do the job have enough to contend with, be it driving, dealing other road users, dealing with passengers etc and are grossly underpaid for doing what I see as a difficult job. I don't think adding the role of policeman, and potentially prosecuting them is the best way forward. There needs to be clear guidance from bus companies, or in the case of London, TfL, as so what is permissible and expected under the Law. Clearly wheelchair users should have priority, and indeed having been a buggy dad myself, I have folded my pushchair to allow space for a wheelchair. The line as to what to do when buggy mom won't fold her pushchair is not easy, if it were I think the judgement may have been different. Particularly important is education (for example better publicity) to set expectations that buggy mom should fold their pushchair to let a wheelchair passenger on. There is now some publicity, but much more is required. It is reasonable to expect the driver to tell buggy mom to fold her pushchair, but what if she doesn't. How many times must the driver tell buggy mom. If the driver stops the bus, how long for, particularly as doing that is a form of collective punishment not just against the passengers on the bus, but also those waiting ahead. What about double buggies or those that do not fold? Do bus companies ban non folding pushchairs, and if so what are parents who already have them supposed to do. There needs to be much more understanding all round, particularly for wheelchair passengers and education is the best way to achieve that. You could easily lose 5 minutes trying to get the space free/ having to call iBus to inform the bus behind there is a wheelchair. Also on a separate note so many people have those push along basket things,?? (no idea on name) they also get dumped in the wheelchair bay
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Post by vjaska on Feb 25, 2017 10:10:23 GMT
Very interesting to hear from the claimant. I think as matters stand, things are somewhat unsatisfactory all round, from wheelchair users to buggy mom to bus driver. I am not and never have been a bus driver, but those who do the job have enough to contend with, be it driving, dealing other road users, dealing with passengers etc and are grossly underpaid for doing what I see as a difficult job. I don't think adding the role of policeman, and potentially prosecuting them is the best way forward. There needs to be clear guidance from bus companies, or in the case of London, TfL, as so what is permissible and expected under the Law. Clearly wheelchair users should have priority, and indeed having been a buggy dad myself, I have folded my pushchair to allow space for a wheelchair. The line as to what to do when buggy mom won't fold her pushchair is not easy, if it were I think the judgement may have been different. Particularly important is education (for example better publicity) to set expectations that buggy mom should fold their pushchair to let a wheelchair passenger on. There is now some publicity, but much more is required. It is reasonable to expect the driver to tell buggy mom to fold her pushchair, but what if she doesn't. How many times must the driver tell buggy mom. If the driver stops the bus, how long for, particularly as doing that is a form of collective punishment not just against the passengers on the bus, but also those waiting ahead. What about double buggies or those that do not fold? Do bus companies ban non folding pushchairs, and if so what are parents who already have them supposed to do. There needs to be much more understanding all round, particularly for wheelchair passengers and education is the best way to achieve that. You could easily lose 5 minutes trying to get the space free/ having to call iBus to inform the bus behind there is a wheelchair. Also on a separate note so many people have those push along basket things,?? (no idea on name) they also get dumped in the wheelchair bay I just call them trolleys - they're generally pushed around by the elderly when they come into my workplace. On buses, some leave them right by the rear door if they are sitting in the two seats there.
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Post by rambo on Feb 25, 2017 18:27:22 GMT
Have I missed something? Drivers getting points for not allowing a wheelchair on?
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Post by rambo on Feb 25, 2017 18:31:49 GMT
IMO, double width buggies should not be allowed on buses. Buggies should only be allowed to board via front doors.
Yet another example of not being nipped in the bud- allowing buggies to use rear doors to board, buggy mum now thinks it is their RIGHT to do it without even asking the driver 1st.
Since driving buses in essex, I have had ZERO problems with buggies and wheelchairs. Buggy mums always ask 1st and most are looking to see if there is space as soon as the bus pulls up.
Certain london buggy mums were a bloody nightmare!
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Post by londonbusboy on Feb 25, 2017 19:13:50 GMT
You could easily lose 5 minutes trying to get the space free/ having to call iBus to inform the bus behind there is a wheelchair. Also on a separate note so many people have those push along basket things,?? (no idea on name) they also get dumped in the wheelchair bay I just call them trolleys - they're generally pushed around by the elderly when they come into my workplace. On buses, some leave them right by the rear door if they are sitting in the two seats there. Its not just the elderly now, lots of younger people have those trolleys. What makes me laugh is when they can barely lift it on/off the bus!
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