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Post by Lukeo on Oct 14, 2019 10:08:34 GMT
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Post by snowman on Oct 14, 2019 10:55:44 GMT
Looks like plan is to build a diversion from just south of Lambeth North, also looks like the overrun at Lewisham swings to align with a potential extension into the Ladywell line consultations.tfl.gov.uk/tube/5b75a580/user_uploads/ble-proposed-alignment-map.pdfSuggests capacity can be increased by increasing number of trains to 27 per hour (without mentioning it was over 30 when there was second branch north of Baker Street, before Jubilee took it over). Don't like the way it is compared to current poor relation as justification for extension. I decided to skip 15 documents an look at 16th (final one) which then says its all unfunded, as is the modernisation of existing line. Basically nothing on either will happen before 2024 at earliest. So it joins Crossrail 2 as an unfunded idea that may never happen in our lifetime. Some of this was in the Railway (London Plan) Committee 1944 document, so not excactly new as it was considered as past of potential post war modernisation, so already been 75 years in development. |
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Post by redbus on Nov 8, 2019 21:55:39 GMT
Looks like plan is to build a diversion from just south of Lambeth North, also looks like the overrun at Lewisham swings to align with a potential extension into the Ladywell line consultations.tfl.gov.uk/tube/5b75a580/user_uploads/ble-proposed-alignment-map.pdfSuggests capacity can be increased by increasing number of trains to 27 per hour (without mentioning it was over 30 when there was second branch north of Baker Street, before Jubilee took it over). Don't like the way it is compared to current poor relation as justification for extension. I decided to skip 15 documents an look at 16th (final one) which then says its all unfunded, as is the modernisation of existing line. Basically nothing on either will happen before 2024 at earliest. So it joins Crossrail 2 as an unfunded idea that may never happen in our lifetime. Some of this was in the Railway (London Plan) Committee 1944 document, so not excactly new as it was considered as past of potential post war modernisation, so already been 75 years in development. To be fair when there were over 30 trains an hour on the Bakerloo it was over a relatively short peak hour period making it more viable. Having said that the line does appear to have gone backwards in terms of the number of possible trains per hour. |
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Post by M1104 on Dec 14, 2019 12:03:00 GMT
If and when the new Elephant and Castle Station opens along the Bakerloo Line extension I'm assuming the old (present) station will be kept on for private¹ use like with Charing Cross station on the redundant section of the Jubilee Line. I imagine it could also be used as a siding for any trains that curtail at Lambeth North with a bit of stand time.
¹- access to/from the London Road outstation, training exercises and possibly future film scenes
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mr24
Conductor
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Post by mr24 on Feb 2, 2020 16:03:41 GMT
I was thinking about the Bakerloo line extension and specifically what is going to happen South of Lewisham, and it occurs to me that the current plan to extend it to Hayes really is not a good idea. People on the Hayes branch lie have very good service; they can take advantage of a quick, comfortable national rail train into the city running 4 times an hour through London. Converting it into tube would bring some benefits like better connection further into London, more trains (maybe 6 per hour as supposed to the current 4), but there are a lot of disadvantages to this, such as cutting off the entire branch (except Catford) from the City, slowing down journey times, less comfortable trains, and Hayes residents also said they were reluctant to have an extension because they do not want Hayes to lose its village-like feel (although they should not worry about this, it has not happened in parts of North London served by the tube). Hayes residents agreed with this in a consultation (https://hayesandconeyhall.org.uk/2015/02/28/bakerloo-line-extension-hayes-coney-hall-says/) and overall this would seem like a lot of effort for an extension which would not even be popular, dare I call it almost a vanity project.
My better idea would be (predictably) to extend the Bakerloo line along existing national rail lines to Bromley North instead. It could emerge from its tunnel onto the south/west pair of tracks between Lewisham and Hither Green, so it then does not need to cross any lines on a level and disrupt mainline trains. The Grove Park to Bromley North section could be turned into a complete tube line with tube platforms. It is probably much more confusing than this in a practical sense, but it does not seem to me like it would have to be harder than This would be great because currently, the Bromley North line has all the disadvantages of being a national rail line - no service into Central London, infrequent trains etc. Bromley as a whole is an area that I do not think really wants a sense of independence from London in the same way Hayes does, so a tube line there would be much more appreciated compared to how it has been taken by Hayes residents. It also improves the links for more people. The Bromley extension would improve the connection from Bromley to both the west end and the city, while the Hayes extension would completely forfeit that branches currently excellent connection with the city and replace it with a connection to the west end.
Overall the Hayes branch line seems to be a place that has really taken advantage of having a national rail link as supposed to a tube link, while Bromley North is an example of a place in Southeast London which probably wishes it had a tube network like the other side of the river, so surely giving Bromley North the tube is the better idea? I'm certainly missing something about the overall number of customers and popularity here.
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Post by greenboy on Feb 2, 2020 16:14:32 GMT
I was thinking about the Bakerloo line extension and specifically what is going to happen South of Lewisham, and it occurs to me that the current plan to extend it to Hayes really is not a good idea. People on the Hayes branch lie have very good service; they can take advantage of a quick, comfortable national rail train into the city running 4 times an hour through London. Converting it into tube would bring some benefits like better connection further into London, more trains (maybe 6 per hour as supposed to the current 4), but there are a lot of disadvantages to this, such as cutting off the entire branch (except Catford) from the City, slowing down journey times, less comfortable trains, and Hayes residents also said they were reluctant to have an extension because they do not want Hayes to lose its village-like feel (although they should not worry about this, it has not happened in parts of North London served by the tube). Hayes residents agreed with this in a consultation (https://hayesandconeyhall.org.uk/2015/02/28/bakerloo-line-extension-hayes-coney-hall-says/) and overall this would seem like a lot of effort for an extension which would not even be popular, dare I call it almost a vanity project. My better idea would be (predictably) to extend the Bakerloo line along existing national rail lines to Bromley North instead. It could emerge from its tunnel onto the south/west pair of tracks between Lewisham and Hither Green, so it then does not need to cross any lines on a level and disrupt mainline trains. The Grove Park to Bromley North section could be turned into a complete tube line with tube platforms. It is probably much more confusing than this in a practical sense, but it does not seem to me like it would have to be harder than This would be great because currently, the Bromley North line has all the disadvantages of being a national rail line - no service into Central London, infrequent trains etc. Bromley as a whole is an area that I do not think really wants a sense of independence from London in the same way Hayes does, so a tube line there would be much more appreciated compared to how it has been taken by Hayes residents. It also improves the links for more people. The Bromley extension would improve the connection from Bromley to both the west end and the city, while the Hayes extension would completely forfeit that branches currently excellent connection with the city and replace it with a connection to the west end. Overall the Hayes branch line seems to be a place that has really taken advantage of having a national rail link as supposed to a tube link, while Bromley North is an example of a place in Southeast London which probably wishes it had a tube network like the other side of the river, so surely giving Bromley North the tube is the better idea? I'm certainly missing something about the overall number of customers and popularity here. Why isn't it a good idea? I get it that some Hayes commuters won't be happy at losing their link to the City but you just can't please everyone. There will be a direct link into the West End and into NW London instead. I don't think your Bromley North idea is viable, the cost of tunneling to Grove Park which would just parallel the existing NR lines and Bromley South has a regular fast service to Victoria. |
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Post by busaholic on Feb 2, 2020 19:11:17 GMT
I was thinking about the Bakerloo line extension and specifically what is going to happen South of Lewisham, and it occurs to me that the current plan to extend it to Hayes really is not a good idea. People on the Hayes branch lie have very good service; they can take advantage of a quick, comfortable national rail train into the city running 4 times an hour through London. Converting it into tube would bring some benefits like better connection further into London, more trains (maybe 6 per hour as supposed to the current 4), but there are a lot of disadvantages to this, such as cutting off the entire branch (except Catford) from the City, slowing down journey times, less comfortable trains, and Hayes residents also said they were reluctant to have an extension because they do not want Hayes to lose its village-like feel (although they should not worry about this, it has not happened in parts of North London served by the tube). Hayes residents agreed with this in a consultation (https://hayesandconeyhall.org.uk/2015/02/28/bakerloo-line-extension-hayes-coney-hall-says/) and overall this would seem like a lot of effort for an extension which would not even be popular, dare I call it almost a vanity project. My better idea would be (predictably) to extend the Bakerloo line along existing national rail lines to Bromley North instead. It could emerge from its tunnel onto the south/west pair of tracks between Lewisham and Hither Green, so it then does not need to cross any lines on a level and disrupt mainline trains. The Grove Park to Bromley North section could be turned into a complete tube line with tube platforms. It is probably much more confusing than this in a practical sense, but it does not seem to me like it would have to be harder than This would be great because currently, the Bromley North line has all the disadvantages of being a national rail line - no service into Central London, infrequent trains etc. Bromley as a whole is an area that I do not think really wants a sense of independence from London in the same way Hayes does, so a tube line there would be much more appreciated compared to how it has been taken by Hayes residents. It also improves the links for more people. The Bromley extension would improve the connection from Bromley to both the west end and the city, while the Hayes extension would completely forfeit that branches currently excellent connection with the city and replace it with a connection to the west end. Overall the Hayes branch line seems to be a place that has really taken advantage of having a national rail link as supposed to a tube link, while Bromley North is an example of a place in Southeast London which probably wishes it had a tube network like the other side of the river, so surely giving Bromley North the tube is the better idea? I'm certainly missing something about the overall number of customers and popularity here. The local authority, Bromley, want not only Hayes and Beckenham to be served by the Bakerloo, but Bromley too, in the form of an extension from Beckenham Junction. BJ would be a spur from New Beckenham in any case under TfL's plans: the extension to Bromley was iirc to Bromley North under the borough's own plans, I'm not sure on what basis. If that was intended to be a replacement for SE services from BN, i can't see it catching on, with such a roundabout route. Actually, as proposed by Bromley Council it's a total fantasy! |
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Post by vjaska on Feb 2, 2020 20:11:03 GMT
I was thinking about the Bakerloo line extension and specifically what is going to happen South of Lewisham, and it occurs to me that the current plan to extend it to Hayes really is not a good idea. People on the Hayes branch lie have very good service; they can take advantage of a quick, comfortable national rail train into the city running 4 times an hour through London. Converting it into tube would bring some benefits like better connection further into London, more trains (maybe 6 per hour as supposed to the current 4), but there are a lot of disadvantages to this, such as cutting off the entire branch (except Catford) from the City, slowing down journey times, less comfortable trains, and Hayes residents also said they were reluctant to have an extension because they do not want Hayes to lose its village-like feel (although they should not worry about this, it has not happened in parts of North London served by the tube). Hayes residents agreed with this in a consultation (https://hayesandconeyhall.org.uk/2015/02/28/bakerloo-line-extension-hayes-coney-hall-says/) and overall this would seem like a lot of effort for an extension which would not even be popular, dare I call it almost a vanity project. My better idea would be (predictably) to extend the Bakerloo line along existing national rail lines to Bromley North instead. It could emerge from its tunnel onto the south/west pair of tracks between Lewisham and Hither Green, so it then does not need to cross any lines on a level and disrupt mainline trains. The Grove Park to Bromley North section could be turned into a complete tube line with tube platforms. It is probably much more confusing than this in a practical sense, but it does not seem to me like it would have to be harder than This would be great because currently, the Bromley North line has all the disadvantages of being a national rail line - no service into Central London, infrequent trains etc. Bromley as a whole is an area that I do not think really wants a sense of independence from London in the same way Hayes does, so a tube line there would be much more appreciated compared to how it has been taken by Hayes residents. It also improves the links for more people. The Bromley extension would improve the connection from Bromley to both the west end and the city, while the Hayes extension would completely forfeit that branches currently excellent connection with the city and replace it with a connection to the west end. Overall the Hayes branch line seems to be a place that has really taken advantage of having a national rail link as supposed to a tube link, while Bromley North is an example of a place in Southeast London which probably wishes it had a tube network like the other side of the river, so surely giving Bromley North the tube is the better idea? I'm certainly missing something about the overall number of customers and popularity here. I do feel it should go as far as Bromley but I doubt it will happen anyway, think there still some doubt about the Lewisham extension even being built to the current timeline. As for Hayes residents, it's comments like that do make sigh heavily - they already have a train station and a number of bus routes, two of which operate every 12 mins and of the two has a 24 hour service and has a well known supermarket at the bottom of one end so arguably, they lost their village like feel years ago. The Bakerloo Line extending there wouldn't harm what they say is a village like feel - Hayes won't suddenly turn into Stratford. |
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mr24
Conductor
Posts: 66
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Post by mr24 on Feb 2, 2020 21:23:21 GMT
I was thinking about the Bakerloo line extension and specifically what is going to happen South of Lewisham, and it occurs to me that the current plan to extend it to Hayes really is not a good idea. People on the Hayes branch lie have very good service; they can take advantage of a quick, comfortable national rail train into the city running 4 times an hour through London. Converting it into tube would bring some benefits like better connection further into London, more trains (maybe 6 per hour as supposed to the current 4), but there are a lot of disadvantages to this, such as cutting off the entire branch (except Catford) from the City, slowing down journey times, less comfortable trains, and Hayes residents also said they were reluctant to have an extension because they do not want Hayes to lose its village-like feel (although they should not worry about this, it has not happened in parts of North London served by the tube). Hayes residents agreed with this in a consultation (https://hayesandconeyhall.org.uk/2015/02/28/bakerloo-line-extension-hayes-coney-hall-says/) and overall this would seem like a lot of effort for an extension which would not even be popular, dare I call it almost a vanity project. My better idea would be (predictably) to extend the Bakerloo line along existing national rail lines to Bromley North instead. It could emerge from its tunnel onto the south/west pair of tracks between Lewisham and Hither Green, so it then does not need to cross any lines on a level and disrupt mainline trains. The Grove Park to Bromley North section could be turned into a complete tube line with tube platforms. It is probably much more confusing than this in a practical sense, but it does not seem to me like it would have to be harder than This would be great because currently, the Bromley North line has all the disadvantages of being a national rail line - no service into Central London, infrequent trains etc. Bromley as a whole is an area that I do not think really wants a sense of independence from London in the same way Hayes does, so a tube line there would be much more appreciated compared to how it has been taken by Hayes residents. It also improves the links for more people. The Bromley extension would improve the connection from Bromley to both the west end and the city, while the Hayes extension would completely forfeit that branches currently excellent connection with the city and replace it with a connection to the west end. Overall the Hayes branch line seems to be a place that has really taken advantage of having a national rail link as supposed to a tube link, while Bromley North is an example of a place in Southeast London which probably wishes it had a tube network like the other side of the river, so surely giving Bromley North the tube is the better idea? I'm certainly missing something about the overall number of customers and popularity here. I do feel it should go as far as Bromley but I doubt it will happen anyway, think there still some doubt about the Lewisham extension even being built to the current timeline. As for Hayes residents, it's comments like that do make sigh heavily - they already have a train station and a number of bus routes, two of which operate every 12 mins and of the two has a 24 hour service and has a well known supermarket at the bottom of one end so arguably, they lost their village like feel years ago. The Bakerloo Line extending there wouldn't harm what they say is a village like feel - Hayes won't suddenly turn into Stratford. I'm not really buying the argument that Hayes does not have a village like feel, it is quiet still, its high street seems quaint and does not have the same 'overcrowded London' feel. Not that this really matters as either way bringing the tube to them is not going to even make the slightest contribution in making Hayes busier, as you say. |
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Post by george on Feb 2, 2020 21:34:58 GMT
I do feel it should go as far as Bromley but I doubt it will happen anyway, think there still some doubt about the Lewisham extension even being built to the current timeline. As for Hayes residents, it's comments like that do make sigh heavily - they already have a train station and a number of bus routes, two of which operate every 12 mins and of the two has a 24 hour service and has a well known supermarket at the bottom of one end so arguably, they lost their village like feel years ago. The Bakerloo Line extending there wouldn't harm what they say is a village like feel - Hayes won't suddenly turn into Stratford. I'm not really buying the argument that Hayes does not have a village like feel, it is quiet still, its high street seems quaint and does not have the same 'overcrowded London' feel. Not that this really matters as either way bringing the tube to them is not going to even make the slightest contribution in making Hayes busier, as you say. I can't comment on Hayes but there are still places in London that can have frequent and 24 hour/night bus services passing through it and still feel like a village, for example Barnes has a very village feel to it imo. To me it has a more village feel to it than Wimbledon Village despite that actually having the word Village in its name. |
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Post by galwhv69 on Feb 2, 2020 21:52:21 GMT
I'm not really buying the argument that Hayes does not have a village like feel, it is quiet still, its high street seems quaint and does not have the same 'overcrowded London' feel. Not that this really matters as either way bringing the tube to them is not going to even make the slightest contribution in making Hayes busier, as you say. I can't comment on Hayes but there are still places in London that can have frequent and 24 hour/night bus services passing through it and still feel like a village, for example Barnes has a very village feel to it imo. To me it has a more village feel to it than Wimbledon Village despite that actually having the word Village in its name. I would agree as well as Roehampton (the Vale end towards Asda) |
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Post by ADH45258 on Feb 2, 2020 23:12:33 GMT
I was thinking about the Bakerloo line extension and specifically what is going to happen South of Lewisham, and it occurs to me that the current plan to extend it to Hayes really is not a good idea. People on the Hayes branch lie have very good service; they can take advantage of a quick, comfortable national rail train into the city running 4 times an hour through London. Converting it into tube would bring some benefits like better connection further into London, more trains (maybe 6 per hour as supposed to the current 4), but there are a lot of disadvantages to this, such as cutting off the entire branch (except Catford) from the City, slowing down journey times, less comfortable trains, and Hayes residents also said they were reluctant to have an extension because they do not want Hayes to lose its village-like feel (although they should not worry about this, it has not happened in parts of North London served by the tube). Hayes residents agreed with this in a consultation (https://hayesandconeyhall.org.uk/2015/02/28/bakerloo-line-extension-hayes-coney-hall-says/) and overall this would seem like a lot of effort for an extension which would not even be popular, dare I call it almost a vanity project. My better idea would be (predictably) to extend the Bakerloo line along existing national rail lines to Bromley North instead. It could emerge from its tunnel onto the south/west pair of tracks between Lewisham and Hither Green, so it then does not need to cross any lines on a level and disrupt mainline trains. The Grove Park to Bromley North section could be turned into a complete tube line with tube platforms. It is probably much more confusing than this in a practical sense, but it does not seem to me like it would have to be harder than This would be great because currently, the Bromley North line has all the disadvantages of being a national rail line - no service into Central London, infrequent trains etc. Bromley as a whole is an area that I do not think really wants a sense of independence from London in the same way Hayes does, so a tube line there would be much more appreciated compared to how it has been taken by Hayes residents. It also improves the links for more people. The Bromley extension would improve the connection from Bromley to both the west end and the city, while the Hayes extension would completely forfeit that branches currently excellent connection with the city and replace it with a connection to the west end. Overall the Hayes branch line seems to be a place that has really taken advantage of having a national rail link as supposed to a tube link, while Bromley North is an example of a place in Southeast London which probably wishes it had a tube network like the other side of the river, so surely giving Bromley North the tube is the better idea? I'm certainly missing something about the overall number of customers and popularity here. The Hayes branch will have been chosen for quite a similar reason to your suggestion of Bromley North - south of Lewisham, it is segregated from other rail routes in the area. I would actually opt for the Bakerloo line extension to have both branches south of Lewisham. The Hayes branch would also link Catford and Beckenham to the tube network. Would also take further pressure off the lines into London Bridge. The current service pattern of the Bakerloo through central would cover the services to Hayes and Bromley North, possibly with increased frequencies and/or some trains still terminating at Elephant & Castle or Lewisham. |
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Post by vjaska on Feb 2, 2020 23:33:43 GMT
I'm not really buying the argument that Hayes does not have a village like feel, it is quiet still, its high street seems quaint and does not have the same 'overcrowded London' feel. Not that this really matters as either way bringing the tube to them is not going to even make the slightest contribution in making Hayes busier, as you say. I can't comment on Hayes but there are still places in London that can have frequent and 24 hour/night bus services passing through it and still feel like a village, for example Barnes has a very village feel to it imo. To me it has a more village feel to it than Wimbledon Village despite that actually having the word Village in its name. Agree with Barnes as it certainly has more 'village' aspects than Hayes, Wimbledon Village or Roehampton - those to me are not villages at all but merely suburbs. |
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Post by 700101 on Feb 2, 2020 23:41:28 GMT
I was thinking about the Bakerloo line extension and specifically what is going to happen South of Lewisham, and it occurs to me that the current plan to extend it to Hayes really is not a good idea. People on the Hayes branch lie have very good service; they can take advantage of a quick, comfortable national rail train into the city running 4 times an hour through London. Converting it into tube would bring some benefits like better connection further into London, more trains (maybe 6 per hour as supposed to the current 4), but there are a lot of disadvantages to this, such as cutting off the entire branch (except Catford) from the City, slowing down journey times, less comfortable trains, and Hayes residents also said they were reluctant to have an extension because they do not want Hayes to lose its village-like feel (although they should not worry about this, it has not happened in parts of North London served by the tube). Hayes residents agreed with this in a consultation (https://hayesandconeyhall.org.uk/2015/02/28/bakerloo-line-extension-hayes-coney-hall-says/) and overall this would seem like a lot of effort for an extension which would not even be popular, dare I call it almost a vanity project. My better idea would be (predictably) to extend the Bakerloo line along existing national rail lines to Bromley North instead. It could emerge from its tunnel onto the south/west pair of tracks between Lewisham and Hither Green, so it then does not need to cross any lines on a level and disrupt mainline trains. The Grove Park to Bromley North section could be turned into a complete tube line with tube platforms. It is probably much more confusing than this in a practical sense, but it does not seem to me like it would have to be harder than This would be great because currently, the Bromley North line has all the disadvantages of being a national rail line - no service into Central London, infrequent trains etc. Bromley as a whole is an area that I do not think really wants a sense of independence from London in the same way Hayes does, so a tube line there would be much more appreciated compared to how it has been taken by Hayes residents. It also improves the links for more people. The Bromley extension would improve the connection from Bromley to both the west end and the city, while the Hayes extension would completely forfeit that branches currently excellent connection with the city and replace it with a connection to the west end. Overall the Hayes branch line seems to be a place that has really taken advantage of having a national rail link as supposed to a tube link, while Bromley North is an example of a place in Southeast London which probably wishes it had a tube network like the other side of the river, so surely giving Bromley North the tube is the better idea? I'm certainly missing something about the overall number of customers and popularity here. Network rail have mentioned that a Bakerloo line extension is needed over the Hayes branch to enable capacity to be freed up which would enable more trains along the southeastern main line I.e an extra 2tph could be accommodated on the stopping services via Grove Park also this could speed up the current CX - Ramsgate services (fast L.Bridge to Tonbridge & Ashford) with a additional 2tph to Ashford stopping services. It was mentioned in the consultation that Hither Green area could be used for start of construction which would have running tunnels but would be disused after the line becomes operational this could be used as a branch to Hither Green and extended later beyond to Bromley North via Grove Park which could in turn have the Bakerloo line run to Hayes, Beckenham J and Bromley North, with 27tph projected across the bakerloo line once upgrades to signalling is completed could in turn have 27tph up to Lewisham with 9tph on each branch, which would be a massive increase for all 3 lines |
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Post by galwhv69 on Feb 4, 2020 19:21:02 GMT
I can't comment on Hayes but there are still places in London that can have frequent and 24 hour/night bus services passing through it and still feel like a village, for example Barnes has a very village feel to it imo. To me it has a more village feel to it than Wimbledon Village despite that actually having the word Village in its name. Agree with Barnes as it certainly has more 'village' aspects than Hayes, Wimbledon Village or Roehampton - those to me are not villages at all but merely suburbs. Fair tbh, although Telegraph Road in Putney Heath has a village feel to me (where the 424 goes) |
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