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Post by Nathan on Mar 30, 2016 17:12:58 GMT
Since when was this planned? I would have thought that these trains would get replaced soon. Aren't they a bit too old?
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Post by Trident on Mar 30, 2016 17:16:43 GMT
Since when was this planned? I would have thought that these trains would get replaced soon. Aren't they a bit too old? The 1972TS is currently going through a 'life extension' project which I believe has been planned for quite a while due to the NTFL project and new trains on the line being a decade away, possibly slightly longer. |
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Post by vjaska on Mar 30, 2016 17:33:20 GMT
Since when was this planned? I would have thought that these trains would get replaced soon. Aren't they a bit too old? They are old but other lines have priority in terms of receiving trains and I believe, though correct me if I'm wrong, that the 1972 stock are more reliable than the 1973 or 1992 stock which makes sense to leave them running longer. |
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Post by snoggle on Mar 30, 2016 18:40:57 GMT
Since when was this planned? I would have thought that these trains would get replaced soon. Aren't they a bit too old? Oh you sweet deluded person.  Replace a tube train - bwahahahahahahahahaha!   These things are falling to pieces with holes in the floors and corrosion all over the place. Unfortunately because LU screwed up the SSR resignalling contract they have had to reschedule the later line upgrades. This means the Piccadilly and Bakerloo lines must struggle on with their existing fleets for another 10 and 20 years respectively. The 73 stock is worked much harder than the 72s so the priority is to replace the 73s first. This will be with the much vaunted "new tube for London" which is years late. We should have had a prototype being delivered about now but that's gone back about 3 years at least. The 72s are due to remain in service until the early 2030s if we are very lucky. They are going through a big programme of "under the floor" refurbishment to allow them to limp on until they are 65 years old. This is what happens when you screw your own budgets and the Govt is not really committed to tube upgrades. They can waste £1bn extending the Northern Line to nowhere useful but won't fund something useful like a revitalised Bakerloo Line. All the flummery from Boris about extending the Bakerloo is, IMO, a great big smokescreen to try to pretend something is being done to make the Bakerloo better but we have been waiting since 1916 for a southern extension to the Bakerloo Line and we're no closer. The National Infrastructure Commission didn't even endorse government funding for the Bakerloo Line running to Lewisham. London has to fund that itself - you haven't got a chance of that happening if London also has to find more than 50% of the £33bn cost of Crossrail 2 which is every politician's latest gimmick despite it being an utter botch. The reason why TfL tweeted that picture is because they have been ridiculed by a certain London Assembly member who tweets a photo of every disgusting Bakerloo Line seat he sees (and quite rightly given the utterly appalling state the seats have been allowed to decay to). It doesn't cost much in terms of time and money to keep train seats clean but it does require people in the depots to crack the whip to make sure it's done properly. I've yet to see a proper explanation as to what the heck went wrong with Bakerloo Line fleet maintenance to allow the seats to become so revolting. Oh and the Central Line was going to be second in line for the "new tube for London" but that's been put at the back at the queue. This is because LU is spending a lot of money on "under the floor" modifications and improvements to keep the trains going. They've already had extensive bodywork changes but need stuff done to the bogies and motors. They have to keep running well into the 2030s. The big question mark in all of this is whether the SSR resignalling can now be delivered on time and on budget. If it slips then all subsequent large schemes like Picc Line Upgrade, Bakerloo Line Upgrade will also slip because they are so big, as is SSR resignalling, that you can't cope with one slipping and the other remaining on time. There simply isn't the financial flexibility in the system to allow it. It is worth repeating at this point that Isabel Dedring, former Deputy Mayor for Transport, said that TfL and the Mayor had failed to get enough revenue and investment grant in the last spending round and the effects of that roll forward many years. The DfT have also said, in a letter to Boris about the funding settlement, that they are expecting fares to rise by inflation plus 1% and have said that they will NOT help out if the next Mayor adopts a fare policy that is different from this scenario. In the words of the alleged Chinese curse - "we will soon be living in interesting times". And just to round off it was announced today that LU's Director of Major Projects, David Waboso, is leaving to go to Network Rail. Nicely stepping out of the firing line over line upgrade delays and avoiding being sacked by the new Mayor!  Cynical, moi?   |
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Post by M1104 on Mar 30, 2016 18:50:09 GMT
The 72 stock's 'extended life' is a bit of a deja vu as it reminds me of when i first went on the Bakerloo Line in 1982 and was shocked to see that the 38 stock were still in regular service. Last time I had seen the 38s was around 1975 on the Northern Line and I had thought they were long since gone from London Transport.
As it goes I was on the Bakerloo Line over the weekend en route to London Zoo and it's great to have a smoother ride on the tunnels on those old gals without the random break/throttle traits of the Northern Line's 95 stock (hope they improve on that soon as the Jubilee versions are much better). I do miss those 72 stock and still remember them when on the Jubilee and Northern* Lines. Also love the relatively identical 73 stock on the Piccadilly Line, especially the ride to Heathrow.
* - mid 80s when Jubilee and Northern's 72 stock were mixed together (eg. 1st four cars being Northen with last three cars Jubilee)
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Post by routew15 on Mar 30, 2016 20:11:08 GMT
I recently caught the Bakerloo Line for the first time in long time and the seats were so tired it actually put me off sitting down. These proposed new trains can't come soon enough but it just seems as though the more that is being pumped into these older trains, is the further away we are from getting the new tube trains.
I do wonder if the this full refurbishment includes improving; the opening and closing of the doors, changing the muffled speakers, changing the windows ... does the re-furb just stop at the poles, the floor, the lights and the seat covers...?
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Post by snoggle on Mar 30, 2016 21:54:33 GMT
I recently caught the Bakerloo Line for the first time in long time and the seats were so tired it actually put me off sitting down. These proposed new trains can't come soon enough but it just seems as though the more that is being pumped into these older trains, is the further away we are from getting the new tube trains. I do wonder if the this full refurbishment includes improving; the opening and closing of the doors, changing the muffled speakers, changing the windows ... does the re-furb just stop at the poles, the floor, the lights and the seat covers...? This paper gives insight into what is being done to the first few trains in order to develop a full spec for the rest of the fleet. I think LU has basically been embarrassed into replacing the seat moquette this year due to its appalling condition. |
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Post by rmz19 on Mar 30, 2016 22:49:12 GMT
I got on a refurbished 72 Stock train by chance on Easter Monday, I was very surprised as I wasn't expecting to see a refurbished Bakerloo Line train so suddenly. I have to say it looked much cleaner and well presented in the inside, I prefer the new seat moquette colour combination and the floor design. The old seats with their worn out seat covers really looked like they were crapped on  I still find it extremely annoying that the Piccadilly and Central Lines are the priorities given they are obviously newer, the latter should be the last to be replaced as not only do I like the 92 Stock, but they are still in good nick. Now with the sudden influx of faulty/defective trains on the Bakerloo Line these days surely this means it should be prioritised, the Piccadilly and Central Lines don't seem to suffer as much from this problem as far as I'm aware. |
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Post by vjaska on Mar 30, 2016 22:50:28 GMT
I've been riding the Bakerloo Line on and off for the last year and a half and I've found the seats to be adequate enough (maybe I'm lucky) - certainly more comfortable than some other lines *cough* Piccadilly *cough*. Even then, people need to realise that the seats were last refurbed over 20 years ago so wear and tear is inevitable so personally, for 20+ year old seats, they're doing a good job
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Post by paulsw2 on Mar 30, 2016 23:47:30 GMT
I've been riding the Bakerloo Line on and off for the last year and a half and I've found the seats to be adequate enough (maybe I'm lucky) - certainly more comfortable than some other lines *cough* Piccadilly *cough*. Even then, people need to realise that the seats were last refurbed over 20 years ago so wear and tear is inevitable so personally, for 20+ year old seats, they're doing a good job As a driver on the District Line our cab seats on the S stock are uncomfortable so i can agree with you on that |
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Post by Connor on Mar 31, 2016 0:19:06 GMT
Only new flooring and seat covers...I wouldn't go as far as to call it a refurbishment. Maybe refresh?
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Post by vjaska on Mar 31, 2016 0:43:49 GMT
Only new flooring and seat covers...I wouldn't go as far as to call it a refurbishment. Maybe refresh? It's more than that though - the link that 'snoggle' provided shows a number of repairs and updates that are being carried out on the stock so I'd personally call it a refurbishment. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2016 19:44:35 GMT
The Bakerloo line is my favourite line with the best trains , no matter their condition.
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Post by twobellstogo on Mar 31, 2016 19:57:35 GMT
I got on a refurbished 72 Stock train by chance on Easter Monday, I was very surprised as I wasn't expecting to see a refurbished Bakerloo Line train so suddenly. I have to say it looked much cleaner and well presented in the inside, I prefer the new seat moquette colour combination and the floor design. The old seats with their worn out seat covers really looked like they were crapped on I still find it extremely annoying that the Piccadilly and Central Lines are the priorities given they are obviously newer, the latter should be the last to be replaced as not only do I like the 92 Stock, but they are still in good nick. Now with the sudden influx of faulty/defective trains on the Bakerloo Line these days surely this means it should be prioritised, the Piccadilly and Central Lines don't seem to suffer as much from this problem as far as I'm aware. I'm not a tube expert by any means, but reading around seems to suggest that the 1973s on the Piccadilly are in worse shape than the 1972s on the Bakerloo. |
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Post by snoggle on Mar 31, 2016 22:13:17 GMT
I got on a refurbished 72 Stock train by chance on Easter Monday, I was very surprised as I wasn't expecting to see a refurbished Bakerloo Line train so suddenly. I have to say it looked much cleaner and well presented in the inside, I prefer the new seat moquette colour combination and the floor design. The old seats with their worn out seat covers really looked like they were crapped on I still find it extremely annoying that the Piccadilly and Central Lines are the priorities given they are obviously newer, the latter should be the last to be replaced as not only do I like the 92 Stock, but they are still in good nick. Now with the sudden influx of faulty/defective trains on the Bakerloo Line these days surely this means it should be prioritised, the Piccadilly and Central Lines don't seem to suffer as much from this problem as far as I'm aware. I'm not a tube expert by any means, but reading around seems to suggest that the 1973s on the Piccadilly are in worse shape than the 1972s on the Bakerloo. Not necessarily worse shape but at far greater risk of rapid deterioration. When I was involved in all things JNP (Jubilee, Northern, Picc) the 73 stock was far and away the most reliable stock by a very large margin. However the stock is worked pretty hard and to be frank it's over 40 years old. There are aspects of the trains that are obsolete and it is a real struggle to keep them going. This is entirely to be expected and it's only the massive experience of the depot staff that keeps this old stock going. You can't keep trains running under high levels of demand and expect them to remain reliable when they're that old and to do it at low cost. It will get progressively more and more difficult and expensive to keep them going. When the original SSR resignalling plan was to equip the 73 stock with interface boxes, to talk to the new signalling on shared sections, the engineers were very worried about cutting holes in the cab floors to fit the black boxes and, even worse, run new cables through the trains. The risk of disturbing all the old wiring and having it break, snap and sheer at unexpected times would cause a big drop in reliability and result in lots of breakdowns in service. It is also extremely hard to detect such problems. 72 stock is much less stressed - the Bakerloo is a relatively short line and is not chronically overloaded like other routes. The Jubilee Line being extended to Charing Cross took a load of pressure off the Bakerloo as Baker St - Oxford Circus used to be the busiest section of the network as trains from Stanmore (used to be the Bakerloo) and Watford / Harrow merged at Baker St. Since then the Bakerloo Line has been pretty much at the back of the queue for improvements hence life extension works now (plus the other issues I put in an earlier post). Compare it with what the Jubilee Line has had spent on it - the two don't really compare. |
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Replace a tube train - bwahahahahahahahahaha! 
Cynical, moi? 
I still find it extremely annoying that the Piccadilly and Central Lines are the priorities given they are obviously newer, the latter should be the last to be replaced as not only do I like the 92 Stock, but they are still in good nick. Now with the sudden influx of faulty/defective trains on the Bakerloo Line these days surely this means it should be prioritised, the Piccadilly and Central Lines don't seem to suffer as much from this problem as far as I'm aware.
