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Post by sid on May 6, 2016 7:33:45 GMT
Why would route 124 need to increased to a frequency like that with those small buses? It traverses some narrow streets and tight corners between Torridon Road and Grove Park hence the small buses, yet is always busy. I occasionally use it in the Catford area and can't help but feel that it suffers terribly from selective inadequacy. The Catford stations generate regular spikes of demand and the 124 often takes the hammering when a lot of people are going to Sangley Road or Grove Park. Pity the 136 and even 160 aren't quite in the immediate catchment of the stations and the 181 to Grove Park leaves from the other side of the road. The 322 is another vehicle size constrained route which runs at high frequency, but for different reasons. It's only the North Downham estate that restricts the 124 to small buses otherwise it could have double deckers. That's a good point about the Catford stations and I wonder if there is a case for extending the 171 to Grove Park, with the 181 cut back to Downham? |
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Post by snoggle on May 6, 2016 8:47:54 GMT
The capacity problems were raised by Caroline Pidgeon in a question to the Mayor a few months ago. Unfortunately the response from TfL wasn't hugely encouraging. A non answer , which disregards the crucial point being made , passengers left behind because of high demand. Only a frequency increase will address needs Not necessarily. You have made an assumption about what "reliability scheme" means. That could mean extra buses being added to ensure dwell times do not become extended because buses are full and people are taking ages to get on and off. Sometimes adding a peak bus(es) to add capacity and narrow the headway slightly might be enough to fix the problem. That could still be presented as a reliability scheme rather than increased frequency. There is obviously an alternative view which is that you just juggle the timetable around. I agree that probably won't fix things. Let's see what happens - TfL's usual approach to overcrowding is incremental extra peak flow journeys if they can be scheduled efficiently. It takes time for them to bite the bullet of a general frequency increase - look at the example of the W19. |
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Post by danorak on May 6, 2016 11:13:15 GMT
It traverses some narrow streets and tight corners between Torridon Road and Grove Park hence the small buses, yet is always busy. I occasionally use it in the Catford area and can't help but feel that it suffers terribly from selective inadequacy. The Catford stations generate regular spikes of demand and the 124 often takes the hammering when a lot of people are going to Sangley Road or Grove Park. Pity the 136 and even 160 aren't quite in the immediate catchment of the stations and the 181 to Grove Park leaves from the other side of the road. The 322 is another vehicle size constrained route which runs at high frequency, but for different reasons. It's only the North Downham estate that restricts the 124 to small buses otherwise it could have double deckers. That's a good point about the Catford stations and I wonder if there is a case for extending the 171 to Grove Park, with the 181 cut back to Downham? I am slightly surprised that the daytime 171 hasn't been rerouted to Hither Green over the N171 - this would help address the capacity issues along Sangley Road and make the route 24 hour (barring the Holborn -TCR bit). |
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Post by 6HP502C on May 6, 2016 12:47:18 GMT
The capacity problems were raised by Caroline Pidgeon in a question to the Mayor a few months ago. Unfortunately the response from TfL wasn't hugely encouraging. A non answer , which disregards the crucial point being made , passengers left behind because of high demand. Only a frequency increase will address needs Pure conjecture on my part, but I would assume it was investigated and found the EWTs (Excess Wait Times) during the peak timebands were poor. Getting the headways under control allows for more effective use of capacity. That said, I don't know that area at all so can't comment further on it. |
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Post by towerman on May 6, 2016 15:36:58 GMT
What bus routes would you increase or decrease the frequency of to more suit capacity and to what to? Please note, you must not make changes to the route. I would: 20: Reduced from every 15 mins to every 20 mins Monday to Saturday 58: Increased from every 10 mins to every 8 mins Monday to Saturday and from every 15 mins to every 12 mins Sundays and evenings. 86: Increased from every 10 mins to every 8 mins on Sundays 97: Increased from every 8 mins to every 6 mins Monday to Saturday and from every 12-15 mins to every 10 mins Sundays and evenings. 123: Increased from every 11 mins to every 8 mins Monday to Saturday and from every 15 mins to every 12 mins Sundays and evenings. 158: Increased from every 10 mins to every 8 mins Monday to Saturdays and from every 15 mins to every 12 mins during evenings. Sunday frequency remains the same. 208: Increased from every 12 mins to every 10 mins Monday to Saturday and from every 15 mins to every 12 mins Sundays and evenings. 241: Reduced from every 10 mins to every 12 mins during peak times and Saturday mornings and every 12 mins to every 15 mins during Weekday shopping hours. Times not mentioned to remain the same. 275: Increased from every 12 mins to every 10 mins Monday to Saturday and from every 20 mins to every 15 mins Sundays and evenings. W16: Increased from every 12 mins to every 10 mins Monday to Saturday and from every 20 mins to every 15 mins Sundays and evenings. 20 - don't agree. I'm not sure I see the point of depriving the large Debden estate of a decent local service. 58 - agree. It is often tremendously busy. 86 - don't know enough to comment. 97 - don't agree. I don't see the point of overbussing the section north of Walthamstow Central which is what would happen. 123 - agree on Sunday daytimes. As I've said endless numbers of times I'd be happy to get x10 back M-S. We have had "temporary" timetables for *3* years now. That's just ridiculous.  158 - not sure. I don't use it enough or see it enough to comment. 208 - don't know enough to comment. 241 - don't know enough to comment. 275 - don't agree. x12 is decent enough and there is usually plenty of capacity. I don't see the point of a more frequent evening and Sunday service. W16 - I think the bigger issue here is vehicle size. If larger vehicles could be used then they'd be a useful start. I agree the route is busy and needs help at times but part of the issue is reliability. Go Ahead seem to struggle badly with the route. The big problem is that if you shove up the frequency then you're likely to get a demand surge which could overwhelm the service even more despite more buses running! I'd see if 10.2m buses could fit on the route and deploy those first. If that doesn't work then frequency or a route restructure or an overlapping service might be needed to help out. Maybe x15 on Sunday shopping hours would be a help. The 58 may improve on Saturdays once West Ham move to Stratford. |
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Post by londonbusboy on May 6, 2016 22:45:11 GMT
314
Sunday: Change to every 20 mins (currently every 30)
Also a timetable tweek across the board.
I was going to suggest the route going high frequency as it would be more reliable during rush hour. I'd say its near impossible to time how long it takes to get through Fiveways/ Mad Mile traffic.
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Post by RandomBusesGirl on May 6, 2016 23:03:59 GMT
308 needs a rethink of its morning weekend timetable; thanks to a pretend-deaf driver on 330, a guy has missed a 308, with one not due to turn up until 30mins later… You should've heard him cursing xD
And that low freq carries on until 9AM!!! It's crazy, they should adjust it to every 20min, and switch to every 12min operation from 7:30AM already on Saturday.
Also, I wish it run a bit later, last Wanstead-bound bus at 23:20, really? And 23:30 CP-bound -_-
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Post by jay38a on May 6, 2016 23:19:42 GMT
308 needs a rethink of its morning weekend timetable; thanks to a pretend-deaf driver on 330, a guy has missed a 308, with one not due to turn up until 30mins later… You should've heard him cursing xD And that low freq carries on until 9AM!!! It's crazy, they should adjust it to every 20min, and switch to every 12min operation from 7:30AM already on Saturday. Also, I wish it run a bit later, last Wanstead-bound bus at 23:20, really? And 23:30 CP-bound -_- Sunday mornings everywhere is completely dead, ive done a busy 181/284 on a Sunday morning prior to say 10am and its dead out there, only picked up a handful a people. Even routes like the 21 are dead, so with a back streetish route like the 308, a frequency of every 30 mins on a Sunday morning is adequate for demand. |
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Post by vjaska on May 6, 2016 23:28:05 GMT
308 needs a rethink of its morning weekend timetable; thanks to a pretend-deaf driver on 330, a guy has missed a 308, with one not due to turn up until 30mins later… You should've heard him cursing xD And that low freq carries on until 9AM!!! It's crazy, they should adjust it to every 20min, and switch to every 12min operation from 7:30AM already on Saturday. Also, I wish it run a bit later, last Wanstead-bound bus at 23:20, really? And 23:30 CP-bound -_- Sunday mornings everywhere is completely dead, ive done a busy 181/284 on a Sunday morning prior to say 10am and its dead out there, only picked up a handful a people. Even routes like the 21 are dead, so with a back streetish route like the 308, a frequency of every 30 mins on a Sunday morning is adequate for demand. Even after the morning peak on weekdays, the buses are quite empty - noticed lots of routes carrying very few passengers in and around Elephant & Brixton  Tottenham Court Road to Elephant is a piece of cake at that time  |
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Post by RandomBusesGirl on May 7, 2016 8:18:34 GMT
Sunday is okay, I might have not asserted enough that my emphasis is on Saturday mainly
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Post by john on May 8, 2016 8:18:49 GMT
One route for me, the 174.
Personally Sundays need improving, a nice 10-12 minute headway would be better than the current 15 that it has.
Secondly, it could possibly go 24 hours if the loadings I've seen are anything to go by. Last bus from Dagenham, which gets to Romford around 0114, is still well loaded while the first one from Harold Hill most mornings is heavily loaded and that is around 0400. It does do really well
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Post by Deleted on May 8, 2016 10:54:35 GMT
One route for me, the 174. Personally Sundays need improving, a nice 10-12 minute headway would be better than the current 15 that it has. Secondly, it could possibly go 24 hours if the loadings I've seen are anything to go by. Last bus from Dagenham, which gets to Romford around 0114, is still well loaded while the first one from Harold Hill most mornings is heavily loaded and that is around 0400. It does do really well There is not point between Romford and Harold Hill making route 174 go 24-hour as route N86 follows it, and I recon keeping the N86 would be good to provide bus links to the Night Tube at Stratford (although now the nearest). Maybe it could just run between Romford and Dagenham. |
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Post by john on May 8, 2016 10:59:34 GMT
One route for me, the 174. Personally Sundays need improving, a nice 10-12 minute headway would be better than the current 15 that it has. Secondly, it could possibly go 24 hours if the loadings I've seen are anything to go by. Last bus from Dagenham, which gets to Romford around 0114, is still well loaded while the first one from Harold Hill most mornings is heavily loaded and that is around 0400. It does do really well There is not point between Romford and Harold Hill making route 174 go 24-hour as route N86 follows it, and I recon keeping the N86 would be good to provide bus links to the Night Tube at Stratford (although now the nearest). Maybe it could just run between Romford and Dagenham. Disagree. The loadings on the first 174 can be the same as an evening rush hour one. The N86 on the other hand is only as busy on Friday and Saturday nights between Romford and Harold Hill. IMO it might be better to run a 24 hour 86 at every 20 minutes across the section that needs it and then run a half hourly 174 through the night, especially when (not if) the District Line gets a 24 hour service to Upminster. Trust me when I say the 174 could be a 24 hour route Let's also not forget that it serves the Tesco site at Marsh Way. We can get some really good loadings just from those guys there yet alone night workers in Romford and other areas of Dagenham. |
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Post by ian on May 8, 2016 21:07:45 GMT
Thinking of my earlier post about the 251 reminds me of a similar route (single deckers, cant go double deck etc), namely 214. I have experienced similar problems - cant get on, crush loadings etc. Needs some extra journeys or something!
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Post by enviroPB on May 17, 2016 16:46:43 GMT
What bus routes would you increase or decrease the frequency of to more suit capacity and to what to? Please note, you must not make changes to the route. I would: 20: Reduced from every 15 mins to every 20 mins Monday to Saturday 58: Increased from every 10 mins to every 8 mins Monday to Saturday and from every 15 mins to every 12 mins Sundays and evenings. 86: Increased from every 10 mins to every 8 mins on Sundays 97: Increased from every 8 mins to every 6 mins Monday to Saturday and from every 12-15 mins to every 10 mins Sundays and evenings. 123: Increased from every 11 mins to every 8 mins Monday to Saturday and from every 15 mins to every 12 mins Sundays and evenings. 158: Increased from every 10 mins to every 8 mins Monday to Saturdays and from every 15 mins to every 12 mins during evenings. Sunday frequency remains the same. 208: Increased from every 12 mins to every 10 mins Monday to Saturday and from every 15 mins to every 12 mins Sundays and evenings. 241: Reduced from every 10 mins to every 12 mins during peak times and Saturday mornings and every 12 mins to every 15 mins during Weekday shopping hours. Times not mentioned to remain the same. 275: Increased from every 12 mins to every 10 mins Monday to Saturday and from every 20 mins to every 15 mins Sundays and evenings. W16: Increased from every 12 mins to every 10 mins Monday to Saturday and from every 20 mins to every 15 mins Sundays and evenings. I'm not sure about off-peak frequencies during the day as I think the route can just about cope; but every 8 mins needs to be had on the 58 on Mondays to Saturdays. Maybe every 7-8 mins on Saturdays as the route goes through some densely populated areas & shopping districts from start to finish. Also in favour of every 12 mins on Sundays. All you need to do is be on the route going along Green Street; people of different faiths do not observe their Sabbath on Sundays and thus, Sundays probably beats Saturdays as the busiest shopping day of the week here. I'm sure that it'll help shoppers & commuters from the Leyton Mills retail park but I'm not too sure if the 158's x12 frequency has helped problems in that area on Sundays. Definitely early evenings need to see a x12 frequency I'd say before 9. I'm spoilt however during the evenings; due to me getting on the route close to its eatern terminus, drivers pretty much throttle it from Forest Gate to East Ham giving a reliable 12-14 min headway. Agree with the 86 headway on Sundays. Outside of Crossrail engineering works, it's commonplace to see an 86 rammed from Ilford to Stratford station. |
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Tottenham Court Road to Elephant is a piece of cake at that time 
